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Thread: Dept of Education to review how Irish exemptions are granted

  1. #1101
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    I was canvassing for FG in Dun Laoghaire in 2011 when the question on most peoples minds was whether they would have a job or whether their pensions would be paid, yet the issue that surprised me most was the opposition to FG's proposal to remove compulsory Irish. To put it in context, I had abortion raised once but compulsory Irish 5 or 6 times. BTW, while I agree with teaching it to everyone, I think compulsion is a waste of time.
    Yes - understood. There is a connection and an affection for Irish. Not much for speaking of course, except for the few words. But definitely as a respected symbol of our independence. The two elements were intertwined in past state policy but I think that now they are gradually separating.

    Seeing the elements as separate, would reflect your position: teaching it or introducing it to everybody in school but after a certain point making it a subject of choice and not compulsory.

  2. #1102
    Politics.ie Member Darren J. Prior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fun with Irish View Post
    Although be they compulsory or not, the most classes don't actually teach Irish in any worthwhile sense.
    It's around 50/50 in my view. There are good Irish teachers out there and most people in Honours Irish classes and some in Ordinary and Foundation Level classes want to learn the Irish they are taught. Most schools have two Irish language classes for Leaving Cert- one Honours level and one Ordinary level.
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    Politics.ie Member A Voice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit Of Newgrange View Post
    14 years. Loads of hours per week. Irish kids could learn 2 or 3 Continental languages with just about the same efforts. Continental languages are much easier because they still have a place where their speakers have poor English. Unlike irish.
    You obviously know very little about Irish kids, and the teaching and learning of continental languages in Ireland.

  4. #1104
    Politics.ie Member A Voice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto Jordan View Post
    I am heartily sick of making the point that people leave school with similar levels of attainment in Irish as they do in other subjects. Its just that it is pretty damn hard to engage in self delusion regarding your levels of competence in irish if you cant tell whether the nuacht is talking about the price of beef in claremorris or the fall of the Peruvian government.

    Yet they will happily imagine they have competence in mathematics despite, after the same 14 years of study, barely being able to carry out simple arithmetic mentally let alone integrate an equation or work out the area of the circular dining room table.
    And even if they nod in recognition that something like , say , the concept of a differential exists they will assume this reflects understanding , yet would not , I hope, infer general fluency just from recognizing that a given word is an irish one and seems correct in its usage.
    Exactly. And you can extend this to the woeful levels of "French" "mastery" on display after 5-6 years. Or geography or anything else.

    People obsess about Irish and cite two elements: 1) command, 2) compulsion. Command has been dealt with by you, and me previously, and we all know it anyway. The compulsion grievance is dealt with with reference to popular opinion. Wombat's experiences while canvassing are an example. Attitudes from polling provide further evidence.

    So if crapness is universal and not confined to Irish, and compulsion is not a problem with the people, then it's game, set and match.

    Not that the whiners will give up. It's all some people ever think about!

  5. #1105
    Politics.ie Member Darren J. Prior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Voice View Post

    Not that the whiners will give up. It's all some people ever think about!
    To be fair there is a vacumn in Ireland when it comes to speaking and promoting Irish. Donal/FWI attempts to fill it most of the time on this site; I wouldn't engage with him otherwise. The fact is that most people in Ireland do not speak Irish and, I think personally, teaching Irish to people who have no interest in learning it is not productive.
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  6. #1106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darren J. Prior View Post
    It's around 50/50 in my view. There are good Irish teachers out there and most people in Honours Irish classes and some in Ordinary and Foundation Level classes want to learn the Irish they are taught. Most schools have two Irish language classes for Leaving Cert- one Honours level and one Ordinary level.
    I bow to your knowledge of the language experience of various learners. And, anyway, who would criticise teaching a subject on the grounds that every student did not reach high technical achievement in it.

    The particular problem with Irish is that the political drive behind it distorts the learning experience. If it were left to the teachers to winnow the corn there would be a better harvest by far.

    (The Exemptions bruhaha may actually bring us nearer to that.)
    Last edited by Fun with Irish; 20th December 2018 at 01:24 PM.

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    Politics.ie Member gijoe's Avatar
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    Wrong thread.

  8. #1108
    Politics.ie Member McTell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Voice View Post
    Exactly. And you can extend this to the woeful levels of "French" "mastery" on display after 5-6 years. Or geography or anything else.

    People obsess about Irish and cite two elements: 1) command, 2) compulsion. Command has been dealt with by you, and me previously, and we all know it anyway. The compulsion grievance is dealt with with reference to popular opinion. Wombat's experiences while canvassing are an example. Attitudes from polling provide further evidence.

    So if crapness is universal and not confined to Irish, and compulsion is not a problem with the people, then it's game, set and match.

    Not that the whiners will give up. It's all some people ever think about!

    Totally agree. Even so, the whole language movement from 1900 was based on false premises that we were an irish "Race" that should naturally speak a nearly-gone language, and play gaelic games and music, being our identity.

    By definition the early enthusiasts were aspergically fixated on everyone speaking it.

    Fact is, we have always liked a choice, and cultural items get taken up and dropped all the time. I don't copy my nan putting out a saucer of milk for the fairies. Someone ordering me to do it because it was a part of the culture, and expecting me to pay for the compulsive procedure, would not be very irish either. But this is how the language was pushed in the past century.

    As for teaching skills, and the number of kids mad keen to learn, these must vary. If parents badly want their kids to be fluent at age 8, then they can't sit back and expect teachers to do all the work.

    The logic of exemptions is that the better teachers will be teaching a smaller number of keener kids, and surely that's going to work better if "we" want to keep the language going into the 2200s.
    McTell tCurrently, I am missing certain information. That has been requested and will be added as soon as it is available available availableavailable

  9. #1109
    Politics.ie Member Darren J. Prior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fun with Irish View Post

    (The Exemptions bruhaha may actually bring us nearer to that.)
    There is a review at the moment going on I believe in relation to the Leaving Cert. in general and there has been consulatations with a lot of teachers and students at second level. If the review says that Irish should be optional for the Leaving Cert then I can see Fine Gael accepting that- the main impediment to it being if FF are against that. This is an internal Department of Education review though and the results of it should be accepted.
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  10. #1110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darren J. Prior View Post
    There is a review at the moment going on I believe in relation to the Leaving Cert. in general and there has been consulatations with a lot of teachers and students at second level. If the review says that Irish should be optional for the Leaving Cert then I can see Fine Gael accepting that- the main impediment to it being if FF are against that. This is an internal Department of Education review though and the results of it should be accepted.
    Yes - I have noticed that review. My guess is that, given the demand of school time for other subjects, any review will tend towards greater freedom of choice for students.

    As for the Government and FF - I wonder how they feel about Irish being used as a political barricade in the North? Surely not benignly.

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