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Thread: Comparing Israel to the Nazis, is it anti-semitic.

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    Politics.ie Member roc_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golah veNekhar View Post
    If you honestly believe that there is any possibility of him joking there when he placed the responsibility for the violence on you and Westerners like you...
    I said people like Page61 - obviously referring to his glaring heinous prejudice and discrimination (that you share with him).

    And I was of course not referring to all violence, but specifically the vindication of the strategy of putting children in the front-line to garner negative PR against Israel.





    Listen, there is not the slightest doubt about Palestinian extremists deliberately using their children in attacks on Jews. And any fool can see it of course, if they wanted to.

    But people like Page61 pretend not to see it, and in doing so propagate a vicious circle. - No, I am certainly not joking about it.
    The news does not tell you how the seed is germinating in the ground but it may tell you when the first sprout breaks through the surface.

  2. #242
    Politics.ie Member roc_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAGE61 View Post
    But since you answering select questions..Are the UN antisemitic?
    They are biased and compromised, certainly.

    For example look at how between 2006 and 2016 the United Nations Human Rights Council passed 67 resolutions condemning human rights violations around the world such as the massacre of half a million people in Syria, the genocide in Darfur, the execution of lesbian, gay and bisexual people in Iran, etc. - In the same decade the same Human Rights Council passed 68 resolutions condemning Israel!

    Or how the current high commissioner of the UNHCR, Zeid Raad Al Hussein, consistently ignores every attack and terror attack against Jews and Israel. And the other UN bodies are little better. (The Arab countries grant an automatic majority to every anti-Israel organization.)

    Btw, this bias and discrimination is acknowledged and accepted widely - even by pro-Palestinian advocates right at the top of the UN's organisation. E.g.



    This is also why there was such a furore when Obama and Kerry compromised themselves in the UN politics of the targeting of Israel by setting it up so that resolution 2334 would pass (countries such as New Zealand have since expressed regret that they followed their lead).

    But as to the question of whether this "bias" equates to "anti-Semitism", well that is more complicated. - Clearly, what so regularly happens at the UN can’t just be a mistake, it can’t be a coincidence. When it comes to Jews and Israelis, the UN has without doubt become a hostile and biased body. This organization which is meant to fight antisemitism, which is sworn to fight antisemitism, is not rising to the task.

    But rather than that I should say something about it, I will let Chaim Herzog speak, the Israeli president born and raised in this country, citing the speech he made at the beginning of the assault on the UN in 1975 with the "Zionism is Racism" resolution (rescinded in 1991, with many statements of apology for the occurrence).

    Read it and try and appreciate his point, with respect to the dynamic that I believe remains in the UN to the present day.


    "... It is no coincidence that the co-sponsors and supporters of this resolution include countries who are guilty of the horrible crimes of anti-Semitism and discrimination to this very day.

    Support for the aim of Zionism was written into the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine and was again endorsed by the United Nations in 1947, when the General Assembly voted by overwhelming majority for the restoration of Jewish independence in our ancient land.

    The re-establishment of Jewish independence in Israel, after centuries of struggle to overcome foreign conquest and exile, is a vindication of the fundamental concepts of the equality of nations and of self-determination. To question the Jewish people’s right to national existence and freedom is not only to deny to the Jewish people the right accorded to every other people on this globe, but it is also to deny the central precepts of the United Nations.

    As a former foreign minister of Israel, Abba Eban, has written: “Zionism is nothing more – but also nothing less – than the Jewish people’s sense of origin and destination in the land linked eternally with its name.

    It is also the instrument whereby the Jewish nation seeks an authentic fulfillment of itself. And the drama is enacted in 20 states comprising a hundred million people in four-and-a-half million square miles, with vast resources. The issue therefore is not whether the world will come to terms with Arab nationalism. The question is at what point Arab nationalism, with its prodigious glut of advantage, wealth and opportunity, will come to terms with the modest but equal rights of another Middle Eastern nation to pursue its life in security and peace.”

    The vicious diatribes on Zionism voiced here by Arab delegates may give this Assembly the wrong impression that while the rest of the world supported the Jewish national liberation movement the Arab world was always hostile to Zionism. This is not the case. Arab leaders, cognizant of the rights of the Jewish people, fully endorsed the virtues of Zionism.

    Sherif Hussein, the leader of the Arab world during World War I, welcomed the return of the Jews to Palestine. His son, Emir Feisal, who represented the Arab world in the Paris Peace Conference, had this to say about Zionism: “We Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement....

    We will wish the Jews a hearty welcome home....

    We are working together for a reformed and revised Near East, and our two movements complement one another. The movement is national and not imperialistic.

    There is room in Syria for us both. Indeed, I think that neither can be a success without the other.”

    It is perhaps pertinent at this point to recall that when the question of Palestine was being debated in the United Nations in 1947, the Soviet Union strongly supported the Jewish independence struggle. It is particularly relevant to recall some of Andrei Gromyko’s remarks: “As we know, the aspirations of a considerable part of the Jewish people are linked with the problem of Palestine and of its future administration. This fact scarcely requires proof.... During the last war, the Jewish people underwent exceptional sorrow and suffering. Without any exaggeration, this sorrow and suffering are indescribable. It is difficult to express them in dry statistics on the Jewish victims of the fascist aggressors. The Jews in the territories where the Hitlerites held sway were subjected to almost complete physical annihilation. The total number of Jews who perished at the hands of the Nazi executioners is estimated at approximately six million....

    “The United Nations cannot and must not regard this situation with indifference, since this would be incompatible with the high principles proclaimed in its Charter, which provides for the defense of human rights, irrespective of race, religion or sex....

    “The fact that no Western European state has been able to ensure the defense of the elementary rights of the Jewish people and to safeguard it against the violence of the fascist executioners explains the aspirations of the Jews to establish their own state. It would be unjust not to take this into consideration and to deny the right of the Jewish people to realize this aspiration.”

    How sad it is to see here a group of nations, many of whom have but recently freed themselves of colonial rule, deriding one of the most noble liberation movements of this century, a movement which not only gave an example of encouragement and determination to the peoples struggling for independence but also actively aided many of them either during the period of preparation for their independence or immediately thereafter.

    Here you have a movement which is the embodiment of a unique pioneering spirit, of the dignity of labor, and of enduring human values, a movement which has presented to the world an example of social equality and open democracy being associated in this resolution with abhorrent political concepts.

    We in Israel have endeavored to create a society which strives to implement the highest ideals of society – political, social and cultural – for all the inhabitants of Israel, irrespective of religious belief, race or sex.

    Show me another pluralistic society in this world in which despite all the difficult problems, Jew and Arab live together with such a degree of harmony, in which the dignity and rights of man are observed before the law, in which no death sentence is applied, in which freedom of speech, of movement, of thought, of expression are guaranteed, in which even movements which are opposed to our national aims are represented in our parliament.

    The Arab delegates talk of racism. What has happened to the 800,000 Jews who lived for over 2,000 years in the Arab lands, who formed some of the most ancient communities long before the advent of Islam. Where are they now? The Jews were once one of the important communities in the countries of the Middle East, the leaders of thought, of commerce, of medical science.

    Where are they in Arab society today? You dare talk of racism when I can point with pride to the Arab ministers who have served in my government; to the Arab deputy speaker of my parliament; to Arab officers and men serving of their own volition in our border and police defense forces, frequently commanding Jewish troops; to the hundreds of thousands of Arabs from all over the Middle East crowding the cities of Israel every year; to the peaceful coexistence which has developed; to the fact that Arabic is an official language in Israel on a par with Hebrew; to the fact that it is as natural for an Arab to serve in public office in Israel as it is incongruous to think of a Jew serving in any public office in an Arab country, indeed being admitted to many of them. Is that racism? It is not! That, Mr. President, is Zionism.

    Zionism is our attempt to build a society, imperfect though it may be, in which the visions of the prophets of Israel will be realized. I know that we have problems. I know that many disagree with our government’s policies. Many in Israel too disagree from time to time with the government’s policies ... and are free to do so because Zionism has created the first and only real democratic state in a part of the world that never really knew democracy and freedom of speech.

    This malicious resolution, designed to divert us from its true purpose, is part of a dangerous anti-Semitic idiom which is being insinuated into every public debate by those who have sworn to block the current move toward accommodation and ultimately toward peace in the Middle East. This, together with similar moves, is designed to sabotage the efforts of the Geneva Conference for peace in the Middle East and to deflect those who are moving along the road toward peace from their purpose.

    But they will not succeed, for I can but reiterate my government’s policy to make every move in the direction toward peace, based on compromise.

    We are seeing here today but another manifestation of the bitter anti-Semitic, anti-Jewish hatred which animates Arab society. Who would have believed that in this year, 1975, the malicious falsehoods of the “elders of Zion” would be distributed officially by Arab governments? Who would have believed that we would today contemplate an Arab society which teaches the vilest anti-Jewish hate in the kindergartens?... We are being attacked by a society which is motivated by the most extreme form of racism known in the world today. This is the racism which was expressed so succinctly in the words of the leader of the PLO, Yasser Arafat, in his opening address at a symposium in Tripoli, Libya: “There will be no presence in the region other than the Arab presence....” In other words, in the Middle East from the Atlantic Ocean to the Persian Gulf only one presence is allowed, and that is Arab presence.

    No other people, regardless of how deep are its roots in the region, is to be permitted to enjoy its right to self-determination.


    LOOK AT the tragic fate of the Kurds of Iraq. Look what happened to the black population in southern Sudan. Look at the dire peril in which an entire community of Christians finds itself in Lebanon.

    Look at the avowed policy of the PLO, which calls in its Palestine Covenant of 1964 for the destruction of the State of Israel, which denies any form of compromise on the Palestine issue and which, in the words of its representative only the other day in this building, considers Tel Aviv to be occupied territory. Look at all this, and you see before you the root cause of the twin evils of this world at work, the blind hatred of the Arab proponents of this resolution, and the abysmal ignorance and wickedness of those who support them.

    The issue before this Assembly is neither Israel nor Zionism. The issue is the fate of this organizaiton
    ..."


    I would say things have not changed much in UN in the 40+ years since this speech. Quick summary below.


    The news does not tell you how the seed is germinating in the ground but it may tell you when the first sprout breaks through the surface.

  3. #243
    Politics.ie Member Golah veNekhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    I said people like Page61 - obviously referring to his glaring heinous prejudice and discrimination (that you share with him).

    And I was of course not referring to all of the violence, but specifically the vindication of the strategy of putting children in the front-line to garner negative PR against Israel.




    Listen, there is not the slightest doubt about Palestinian extremists deliberately using their children in attacks on Jews. And any fool can see it of course, if they wanted to.

    But people like Page61 pretend not to see it, and in doing so propagate a vicious circle. - No, I am certainly not joking about it.
    Palwatch is notoriously dishonest. I watched on it recently a video which originally was made in praise of Hezbollah by this child singer from Lebanon. They had photoshopped the head bands that the soldiers in it were wearing from yellow to white and claimed that boy singer was a child soldier and this was the Palestinian Authority advocating genocide of Jews. No one is forcing the IDF to be as violent and as brutal as they are. Just compare them to how the security behaved in the North of Ireland during the years of insurgency there which though very far from perfect was still so different in ways that are ethically preferable to the actions of the IDF, but we need some context to all this.

    Avigdor Lieberman, the hugely popular Israeli politician recently resigned from his position as Minister of Defence in the Knesset and lashed out angrily at the Chiefs of Staff of the IDF labeling them in essence degenerate lovey dovey hippie types. Now while I am certain that if he thought he could get away with Bibi would think nothing of completing fully the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians however he is also a highly rational man with a strong sense of proportion even if that he very difficult for non-Jews to see at times. The thing is that rising stars in Israeli politics are cut from different cloth similar to or worse than that from which Avigdor Lieberman was cut.

    We see this but also at the same time we see something that makes very little sense which is the demonization and constant slander by sources close to the Israeli state of the Palestinian Authority. Now I have absolutely no doubt that Abbas is a genuine antisemite of a type that is incredibly rare within Hamas but that his antisemitism serves Israeli interests because he believes that Jews are not just capable of but inclined towards all types of evil towards non-Jews he is absolutely terrified of the Israelis and what they might do any day to his people. The Palestinian Authority is I do not say a wife of the Israeli or even a girl friend but it's battered prostitute which goes along with nearly everything it tells it to do. So what purpose does this demonization of Abbas and the PA serve?

  4. #244
    Politics.ie Member PAGE61's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golah veNekhar View Post
    Palwatch is notoriously dishonest. I watched on it recently a video which originally was made in praise of Hezbollah by this child singer from Lebanon. They had photoshopped the head bands that the soldiers in it were wearing from yellow to white and claimed that boy singer was a child soldier and this was the Palestinian Authority advocating genocide of Jews. No one is forcing the IDF to be as violent and as brutal as they are. Just compare them to how the security behaved in the North of Ireland during the years of insurgency there which though very far from perfect was still so different in ways that are ethically preferable to the actions of the IDF, but we need some context to all this.

    Avigdor Lieberman, the hugely popular Israeli politician recently resigned from his position as Minister of Defence in the Knesset and lashed out angrily at the Chiefs of Staff of the IDF labeling them in essence degenerate lovey dovey hippie types. Now while I am certain that if he thought he could get away with Bibi would think nothing of completing fully the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians however he is also a highly rational man with a strong sense of proportion even if that he very difficult for non-Jews to see at times. The thing is that rising stars in Israeli politics are cut from different cloth similar to or worse than that from which Avigdor Lieberman was cut.

    We see this but also at the same time we see something that makes very little sense which is the demonization and constant slander by sources close to the Israeli state of the Palestinian Authority. Now I have absolutely no doubt that Abbas is a genuine antisemite of a type that is incredibly rare within Hamas but that his antisemitism serves Israeli interests because he believes that Jews are not just capable of but inclined towards all types of evil towards non-Jews he is absolutely terrified of the Israelis and what they might do any day to his people. The Palestinian Authority is I do not say a wife of the Israeli or even a girl friend but it's battered prostitute which goes along with nearly everything it tells it to do. So what purpose does this demonization of Abbas and the PA serve?
    Thanks for the mention..

    Just because I am opposed to murder, brutality and crimes against children ..dont box me in..
    Apologies for not supporting evil

  5. #245
    Politics.ie Member PAGE61's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    I said people like Page61 - obviously referring to his glaring heinous prejudice and discrimination (that you share with him).

    And I was of course not referring to all violence, but specifically the vindication of the strategy of putting children in the front-line to garner negative PR against Israel.







    Listen, there is not the slightest doubt about Palestinian extremists deliberately using their children in attacks on Jews. And any fool can see it of course, if they wanted to.

    But people like Page61 pretend not to see it, and in doing so propagate a vicious circle. - No, I am certainly not joking about it.
    Page 61 here.. What is this bull about pretending not to see.

    I am opposed to the murder killing of children .. and the spin around this .

    You are a disgrace....

  6. #246
    Politics.ie Member PAGE61's Avatar
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    "]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/10/video-appears-show-cheers-israeli-sniper-shoots-palestinian[/URL]

    Will I just pretend not to see this?

  7. #247
    Politics.ie Member Golah veNekhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    No. Self-criticism is an element of Jewish culture that is stronger than in any other culture (from personal observation). However, it turns into something very different when anti-Semites believe they are included in the "debate". For example if you look at all these types of organisations, or initiatives such as "Breaking the Silence" to give just one example, they are nearly all aimed at an international audience, not at Jews themselves. That's revealing.
    .
    Israelis know what goes on and so do "deeply committed" Jews outside of Israel/Palestine so it would be rather pointless of "Breaking the Silence" to have them as a target audience wouldn't it now?

    Now we are getting into interesting territory. I prefer to discuss the intellectual and spiritual underlying framework of things as opposed to get into constant arguments about details which often do not reveal the real essence of a thing. Self-criticism is indeed a strong part of Jewish cultures, particularly the Yiddish and Ashkenazi ones, however there are various things we can be critical with ourselves about and the one area where Jews in general are not at all self-critical about is the area of ethics and this is because Judaism never developed an ethical tradition as Muslims, Christians and followers of Confucius, would understand the term. Where we do find ethics in Jewish tradition it is always the obvious product of extremely strong Muslim or Christian influence.

    Now I am sure that me saying this will come as a great shock to many here and they will immediately point to the Prophets in the Hebrew Bible, and yes there you do find a very strong ethical tradition, you even find in them that claim at times that ethics are only real important thing in religion. Shlomo Sands recently made the claim that outside of the Karaites the Bible is completely unimportant in Judaism which is false in so far that first five books are important within it, however after them he is correct that Judaism totally ignores the rest of Hebrew Bible as a rule. For those inclined not to be believe on this here is Jewish Professor who is an avid supporter of the state of Israel on the subject:

    http://www.academia.edu/1818788/The_...ont_Read_Books

    So yes secular Jews will be extremely critical of themselves, sometimes to the point of inducing a mental breakdown, if one of their kids drops out of University and a Religious Jew will beat themselves up no end if they forget to tie their shoes after the manner which the Shulchan Aruch with an intensity non-Jews would find perplexing. However that is not being ethically self-critical.

    In fact this aspect of Jewish tradition and cultures was central to concerns among non-Jewish elites in Europe and the United States prior to the foundation of the Israeli state about Jews be entirely in control of a state of their own which brings us to the main topic of the thread. I am sure you will know who originated the comparison between Israel and the Nazis but others will not. It was Professor Yeshayahu Leibowitz who started out not only as a Zionist but as the intellectual poster child of the young Israeli state. They even used to broadcast lectures by him on various subjects on the army radio. He and other Zionists of his generation set out to prove that not only could Jews be ethical but that Jews were going to have to set their detractors right by creating the most morally ethical state in the whole world. After the Qibya massacre began getting more critical of the government, and by the 1970s he was calling people Judeo-Nazis left, right and centre. He died in 1994. What he would make of the situation now in which nearly everything has become so much worse we can only imagination.

    Israel started out with all this Socialist idealism but now you find that it is among the countries with the very worst wealth inequalities in the region and the countries as bad or a bit worse than it are feudal tyrannies while as for Jews Israel is a democracy. Doubtless you will claim that the poverty in Israel only effects the "Arabs" and the Haredi however this is far from being the case.

    While it was true in the past there was a lively spectrum of opinion and debate among Jews within Israel this is less and less so in many areas and almost certainly gone around issues involving the Palestinians. If Jews had a tradition of ethical self-criticism than there would be hope for change coming from within Jewish society in Palestine however everyone should know that people such as Gideon Levy have been saying for some time now that there is none and what is more the Israeli state and society are showing the first signs of what he considers to be fascism. Most disturbing of all for me is how the cries and pleading of the tiny and persecuted Reform movement in Israel are being totally almost ignored by the wealthy and powerful Reform Jewish communities outside of Israel who increasingly only want to here positive things about Israel and much of who's religion has been reduced to supporting and attempting to cover up or justify the brutality against the Palestinians and their gradual complete displacement.

  8. #248
    Politics.ie Member roc_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAGE61 View Post
    ... I am opposed to the murder killing of children...
    No you're not, you little liar.

    If you were opposed you would not pointedly ignore so much that is of the highest relevancy in this ongoing tragedy. I have never once seen you write something on here other than that which vindicates the tactic originally set out by Arafat in the clip above.


    EDIT Rather you are opposed to Israel, and to the Jews living there, and you seek to turn this tragedy to your aim of making false claims against Israel, to justify hatred and demonisation of the Jewish state, so that more and more will shun this nation and eventually strip it of its existence etc.

    Do you really think to take people as such fools? People read more into what you don't say, than what you do say. No doubt you are a fool yourself, but not that big of a fool.
    The news does not tell you how the seed is germinating in the ground but it may tell you when the first sprout breaks through the surface.

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    Politics.ie Member Dame_Enda's Avatar
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    Apartheid SA is a better comparison. Like slavery in the US, Apartheid is Israels "original sin". Theres a mixed Arab Muslim/Jewish Israeli couple on CNN right now on the "Amanpour" show, and it mentioned that the Israeli govt is not happy they are married and doesnt recognise interfaith marriage. Shades of the ban on inter-racial marriages in the Jim Crow Southern USA.
    Last edited by Dame_Enda; 17th December 2018 at 08:26 PM.
    "A great city is not to be confounded with a populous one." - Aristotle

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    Politics.ie Member james toney's Avatar
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    Has the son of Netanyahu got no pull? Why do the zionist trolls support the son of a fascist that calls for ethnic cleansing?

    Facebook Says It Is Deleting Accounts at the Direction of the U.S. and Israeli Governments

    Yair Netanyahu, the prime minister’s grown-up son, voiced a sentiment widely popular in Israel last week when he wrote on Facebook that he wished “All the Muslims [sic] leave the land of Israel”. He was referring to Greater Israel – a territorial area that does not differentiate between Israel and the occupied territories.

    In fact, Israel’s Jim Crow-style policies – segregation of the type once inflicted on African-Americans in the US – is becoming ever more overt.
    "You think thats bad,theres one lunatic that posts on there 40-50 times a day..He's alone..in bad company!

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