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Thread: Comparing Israel to the Nazis, is it anti-semitic.

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    Default Comparing Israel to the Nazis, is it anti-semitic.

    I know this is a very sensitive topic and I will try to approach it in that way.

    The recent controversy in the British Labour Party has highlighted the IHRA definition of anti-semitism .

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com...n-antisemitism

    The definition includes some examples to help guide people and organisations in the eradication of anti-semitism.

    To my mind most of the examples are perfectly rational and depict clear, intentional anti-semitism.

    However, there are, probably, two examples which require clarification. It is these examples which the British Labour Party has resisted implementing in full, pending further discussions.

    One relates to referring to Israel as a "racist endeavour", which may need a different thread to address it's complexity, particularly in regard to the manner in which Palestinians may perceive Israel and it's foundation.

    The other is as follows,

    "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."

    I am not sure if I have ever done this during discussions on this site. I don't think I have, but I can't be sure.

    Without doubt to compare a jewish state to the Nazis is extremely provocative, indeed offensive. However, are there occasions when it is justified.

    Here are some examples of people who have used the comparison,

    https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Po...Germany-453142

    https://www.israelnationalnews.com/A...cle.aspx/18915

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajo_Meyer

    https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-cal...tion-1.5313246

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEYz00MqCx0

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/g...speech-1.21473

    The examples range from senior IDF commanders, Israeli intelligence chiefs, holocaust survivors, to a couple of Labour MP's. They are all zionists, in the sense that they support the right of Israel to exist, as a jewish state, and to defend itself when necessary. Yet they all use the example and, presumably, under the IHRA definition they would be guilty of anti-semitism.

    I don't think anyone can realistically compare Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to Nazi Germany, certainly not at the height of the holocaust. There are no extermination camps, no mass executions. But there are now racist laws, collective punishments, dehumanising language from political and religious leaders, the use of excessive force against unarmed resistance, etc. These are traits of pre-holocaust Germany. There are lots of other examples in history to use, the most obvious is apartheid era South Africa.

    But sometimes is the Nazi comparison valid? Or at least more effective in grabbing people's attention.

    BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel wrestles with Nazi insults

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    Politics.ie Member Clanrickard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffc View Post
    I know this is a very sensitive topic and I will try to approach it in that way.

    The recent controversy in the British Labour Party has highlighted the IHRA definition of anti-semitism .

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com...n-antisemitism

    The definition includes some examples to help guide people and organisations in the eradication of anti-semitism.

    To my mind most of the examples are perfectly rational and depict clear, intentional anti-semitism.

    However, there are, probably, two examples which require clarification. It is these examples which the British Labour Party has resisted implementing in full, pending further discussions.

    One relates to referring to Israel as a "racist endeavour", which may need a different thread to address it's complexity, particularly in regard to the manner in which Palestinians may perceive Israel and it's foundation.

    The other is as follows,

    "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."

    I am not sure if I have ever done this during discussions on this site. I don't think I have, but I can't be sure.

    Without doubt to compare a jewish state to the Nazis is extremely provocative, indeed offensive. However, are there occasions when it is justified.

    Here are some examples of people who have used the comparison,

    https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Po...Germany-453142

    https://www.israelnationalnews.com/A...cle.aspx/18915

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajo_Meyer

    https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-cal...tion-1.5313246

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEYz00MqCx0

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/g...speech-1.21473

    The examples range from senior IDF commanders, Israeli intelligence chiefs, holocaust survivors, to a couple of Labour MP's. They are all zionists, in the sense that they support the right of Israel to exist, as a jewish state, and to defend itself when necessary. Yet they all use the example and, presumably, under the IHRA definition they would be guilty of anti-semitism.

    I don't think anyone can realistically compare Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to Nazi Germany, certainly not at the height of the holocaust. There are no extermination camps, no mass executions. But there are now racist laws, collective punishments, dehumanising language from political and religious leaders, the use of excessive force against unarmed resistance, etc. These are traits of pre-holocaust Germany. There are lots of other examples in history to use, the most obvious is apartheid era South Africa.

    But sometimes is the Nazi comparison valid? Or at least more effective in grabbing people's attention.

    BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel wrestles with Nazi insults
    The answer obviously is yes.

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    Politics.ie Member former wesleyan's Avatar
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    If you look at the Glenda Jackson example, don't forget she co-sponsored an Early Day Motion along with Corbyn and McDonald to rename Holocaust Memorial Day as Genocide Memorial Day. So she has the same agenda as many others which is to imply that it's not anti-semitism unless it kicks the door in wearing shiny boots and the full Hugo Boss kit. So there seems to be a contradiction here; if you neutralise or downplay the Holocaust what is the point of calling the Israelis Nazis ?
    "What Michael Collins accepted in '22,De Valera accepted in'27 and Gerry Adams accepted in '98.Sooner or later they all come around to accepting the Treaty"

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    So much is compared to the Nazis these days that it has become absolutely meaningless which is what happens when words become so overused you forget what the true meaning of it really is.

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    Politics.ie Member Speedfreak's Avatar
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    You will find that 99% of the time, the comparison is used to be hurtful to Jews nearly all of whom would have lost family under the Nazis.

    https://www.economist.com/bagehots-n...s-anti-semitic

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    Using the plight of the Jewish people to excuse the apartheid rampant criminal butchery of the Israeli regime is antisemitic and disgraceful.

    The inhumane Israeli regime has many qualities similar to that of Nazism.
    “You tell me one party out there who doesn’t look after their own. I don’t see anything wrong with it. It’s politics.” - Hilary Quinlan, Fine Gael

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    Comparing anyone to the Nazis is usually just wrong-headed. They really were sui generis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedfreak View Post
    You will find that 99% of the time, the comparison is used to be hurtful to Jews nearly all of whom would have lost family under the Nazis.

    https://www.economist.com/bagehots-n...s-anti-semitic
    But it is used regularly by people who have lost family in the holocaust.
    Hajo Meyer lost his mother, but still used the comparison. Likewise Kaufman lost family to the Nazis.
    The debate in Israel about the use of the term is far from one sided. Many Israeli citizens think there are occasions when the term is justified.
    Is it the kind of term which could be used by jewish people, without being anti-semitic?
    But could not be used by any non-jewish person, as they could never understand the sensitivity of using it.

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    Well Israel constantly compares its critics to the Nazis. The IHRA definition is unreasonable insofar as it equates the State of Israel with the Jewish people. The growing American Jewish criticism of Israel, and the fact Holocaust survivors (including one BBC mentioned as appearing at an event called "Never again for Anyone" with Corbyn) are increasingly seeing parallels between what happened to them and whats happening to the Palestinians suggests it a legitimate comparison to make. Israel is not yet at the stage of exterminating the Palestinians in numerical terms. But the segregation is a daily fact of life in the West Bank and their military has shown its quite prepared to fire with reckless abandon into civilian populations and destroy their homes. How IDF soldiers can sleep at night as parents after shooting Palestininian children dead is a matter for their conscience I suppose if they have one.
    "A great city is not to be confounded with a populous one." - Aristotle

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    Such comparisons serve to minimize the full horror of what the Nazis did and that's the intention of some of those making the comparison.

    Is it anti-Irish to compare the 1845-50 famine in Ireland with e.g. shops running out of food due to weather-related panic-buying?
    Pero camarada, ya han pasado.

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