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Thread: BREXIT: the general forum (Second Thread)

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    Politics.ie Member Toland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonkers View Post
    I realise I’m wasting my time but who’s trying to stop them?
    Perhaps they should. Because the GFA assumes with crystal clarity that both signatory states remain in the EU.

    Full text of the Good Friday Agreement / Belfast Agreement

    Do a text search for "European Union" and "EU." The scales will fall from your eyes.

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    Politics.ie Member 'orebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcos the black View Post
    There's Blinding now...

    Brilliant parting quip:

    I can't do any more for you. I'm really sorry. I feel guilty but there's a level of thickness of skull through which I just cannot penetrate. And the fact that you think it's funny how little you understand everything is, in many ways, Brexit in a nutshell.
    "It is important therefore that I clarify to the House that in the first instance there are significant monies within Anglo-Irish to take the strain of loan losses arising over the next three or four years, before State support is engaged." Brian Lenihan 15/01/09

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    Quote Originally Posted by robut View Post
    3,500 troops. £2bn to deal with the fallout. They haven't even begun to get to grips with the scale of the disruption they are facing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof Honeydew View Post
    A second referendum overturning Brexit is the most logical way for the Brits to pull themselves out of the hole they've dug themselves into. However, keeping in mind the clusterfùck of constitutional, politicial, social and economic problems the 2016 referendum caused, it's not a decision to be taken lightly. If it backfires, it will only make a bad situation worse.

    The biggest problem is one of political credibility. Blinding and some of the other Brexit fanboys might be off the wall on most things but they're right when they say overturning a popular vote because you didn't like the first outcome will result in serious alienation, particularly among sectors of the population whose faith in the state is already less than the norm. Remember, states operate only by the consent of the governed who agree to limits on individual behaviour in order to protect the common good. You've only to look what went on in the failed statelet north of the Border to see what happens when that breaks down. And when it does break down, it is very difficult to pick up the pieces again.

    IMHO, anything less than a substantial margin of victory (say 60%+ to remain in the EU) will cause more problems than it will solve as it will leave a very big minority feeling they've been cheated by the "establishment", "elite", "outside interests", "foreigners" or whatever. That won't go away quickly and its numbers are quite likely to grow again should adverse circumstances like an economic downturn, a terrorist campaign or a major political scandal damage the stability of the status quo.

    I'm not yet convinced that there is a sufficiently large Remain majority among the electorate. Despite all the indications to the contrary and the opinions of independent experts, the numbers who believe Britain is better off going it alone remains stubbornly high. We may disagree with them but that's what they believe and that viewpoint has to be at least considered if the entire system of government isn't to break down.

    Maybe it will change over the Christmas break should the real implications of a no-deal Brexit dawn on enough of its current supporters. However, the chances of that happening aren't helped by the opportunist bickering, posturing, backstabbing and condescending arrogance of many of the Remainer politicians.
    Right there should not be a 2nd referendum or it will go on forever. If the British remain in the EU now on the back of a close 2nd referendum they will do more harm than good.
    A proper Brexit should go ahead for the island of Britain and the backstop should apply to NI only. That is the only logical course of action to keep the largest number of people happy.
    By insisting the backstop apply to the entire UK Theresa May has jeopardised the chances of an orderly proper Brexit.
    Who knows why she did that? Perhaps she was genuinely trying to keep all sides happy but miscalculated on the numbers in parliament. Or was it for purely selfish reasons to keep herself in power and prevent a GE but also miscalculated on the numbers.
    Whichever way we look at it May has delivered a piss poor performance once again.
    “to expect bad men not to do wrong is madness.” - Marcus Aurelius
    “Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society’s understanding.” - Henri Ducard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudite Caveman View Post
    3,500 troops. £2bn to deal with the fallout. They haven't even begun to get to grips with the scale of the disruption they are facing.


    Filmed in Glasgow ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof Honeydew View Post
    A second referendum overturning Brexit is the most logical way for the Brits to pull themselves out of the hole they've dug themselves into. However, keeping in mind the clusterfùck of constitutional, politicial, social and economic problems the 2016 referendum caused, it's not a decision to be taken lightly. If it backfires, it will only make a bad situation worse.

    The biggest problem is one of political credibility. Blinding and some of the other Brexit fanboys might be off the wall on most things but they're right when they say overturning a popular vote because you didn't like the first outcome will result in serious alienation, particularly among sectors of the population whose faith in the state is already less than the norm. Remember, states operate only by the consent of the governed who agree to limits on individual behaviour in order to protect the common good. You've only to look what went on in the failed statelet north of the Border to see what happens when that breaks down. And when it does break down, it is very difficult to pick up the pieces again.

    IMHO, anything less than a substantial margin of victory (say 60%+ to remain in the EU) will cause more problems than it will solve as it will leave a very big minority feeling they've been cheated by the "establishment", "elite", "outside interests", "foreigners" or whatever. That won't go away quickly and its numbers are quite likely to grow again should adverse circumstances like an economic downturn, a terrorist campaign or a major political scandal damage the stability of the status quo.

    I'm not yet convinced that there is a sufficiently large Remain majority among the electorate. Despite all the indications to the contrary and the opinions of independent experts, the numbers who believe Britain is better off going it alone remains stubbornly high. We may disagree with them but that's what they believe and that viewpoint has to be at least considered if the entire system of government isn't to break down.

    Maybe it will change over the Christmas break should the real implications of a no-deal Brexit dawn on enough of its current supporters. However, the chances of that happening aren't helped by the opportunist bickering, posturing, backstabbing and condescending arrogance of many of the Remainer politicians.
    It won’t be a referendum I’m afraid - it’s going to be a GE.

    A referendum would split the Tory party, a GE wouldn’t. A period in opposition would be worth it to avoid that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flavirostris View Post
    Absolutely. Our political establishment have been bought men for years. Our elections basically boil down to a choice between nodding dog EU yes men A or nodding dog EU yes men B.

    When you fill out your ballot paper you can choose

    Fianna Fail EU Puppets
    Fine Gael EU Puppets
    SF EU Puppets
    Labour EU Puppets
    Ind EU Puppet

    and so on..

    They should just cut out the shít and give you a ballot with a big picture of Jean Claude Juncker.

    That's more honest.. but they're giving us the illusion of independent democracy with the wide array of puppets and marionettes and stooges.
    That is just malevolence of the basest kind applied to the union of democracies that make up the EU.

    The EU is made up of nearly thirty democracies in a continent which for centuries was torn apart by imperial/totalitarian warfare.

    Each democracy signed a treaty to cooperate in matters of mutual interest.

    Each has a veto in matters of vital national interest.

    Many of these democracies were former colonies.

    Is it not ironic, therefore, that in deciding to leave the EU the UK has declared economic war on some of its poorest fellow European neighbours including countries that recently were colonies of the Soviet Union?

    Is it not an irony of history that the UK, which less than a century ago governed an empire which contained nearly a quarter of the population of the globe and which was on the winning side in two world wars since, should be complaining about being a member of the EU cooperating with nearly thirty other European democracies?

    Is it also not a little ironic that the UK which is a nuclear power and member of NATO, a permanent member of the security council of the UN and has one of the largest and most developed economies in the world should be complaining about cooperating with the democratic countries of the EU nearly all of which have much less power and influence than the UK?

    The Brexiteer agenda is dismantling the EU and essentially going back to the attitudes of former centuries in which the powerful imposed their will on the weak.

    Are the arguments of the Brexiteers and their arse lickers not indefensible?

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    Politics.ie Member bonkers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toland View Post
    Perhaps they should. Because the GFA assumes with crystal clarity that both signatory states remain in the EU.

    Full text of the Good Friday Agreement / Belfast Agreement

    Do a text search for "European Union" and "EU." The scales will fall from your eyes.
    TBH I’d prefer if they just left at this stage.

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