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Thread: Mass unmarked grave in Tuam for 800 babies (Second Thread)

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    Politics.ie Member Cruimh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Crotta Cliach View Post
    The nuns had the benefit of the contract for care and for the adoptions, and for the reimbursed cost of care and support. Not sure what the church got except a nice political position for the P.P. and a chance to yell "Evil". If the County Council didn't make money, it surely saved spending a lot. Without the contracts and its signatories, it is harder to follow the money trail.
    It is an interesting feature of the complexity of the set up that there could be real tensions between the diocesan Church and the Orders*. However if you mean "The Church" as the entire structure , the Multi-National Corporation with the HQ in Rome, it got prestige and authority in the eyes of the laity as well as money that was sent to Rome by the Orders.

    * For example the controversy between Bishop O'Dwyer of Limerick and the Bruff Christian Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Crotta Cliach View Post
    And the church and also Galway County Council were involved in the "adoption" of children from the home:

    "An Irish Independent article from November 27, 1954 notes that six children from the Tuam home had been adopted by American families in the previous year and a half, and that the Home Assistance Department of the Galway County Council was “screening” fourteen further applications. The story also notes that “Full inquiries are made before an adoption is permitted and information is obtained through Church and State channels. Reports must be furnished regularly to the Council to show that the religious duties of the child are being attended to, that he or she is attending school, and that the circumstances of the couple who adopted the child have not altered.”

    As of 1959 the Galway County Council was to spend money enlarging the building, but...

    "The extension was never built, but was instead applied to the Heraldours Nursing Home, also in Tuam, the following year." but...

    But a £90,000 extension was built at the Bon Secours Nursing Home in #Tuam the following year (12th March 1960)

    In 1960 the Galway CC was considering a proposal to close down the Home.

    "Since 1927, the Children's Home has been under the care of the Bon Secours Sisters, who have as their special mission the care of...

    "By 1961, the Home’s ‘fate was sealed,’ with the announcement that it would be closed in the near future. The article below notes that the occupants would be transferred to “similar centers at Castlepollard, Co. Westmeath; St. Patrick’s, Cabra, [Co Dublin] and Shanross Abbey, Roscrea, [Co Tipperary]” all now recognized as Magdalene institutions. The article seems especially concerned with the “loss” local businesses will feel after the Home closes, “the supply of food, clothing and other necessities [having] been a valuable trade.”

    Article on the closing of the home: "Galway County Council, who are the controlling authority...agreed to the closing...

    "In 1962, there was an attempt to move all of the records from the Tuam Children’s Home to the County Council building in Galway. The move was blocked – at least temporarily – by the Tuam Town Commissioners. (Connaught Tribune, December 8, 1962)."

    I think there is more information on Twitter, but I don't belong, and more on a website now "forbidden".
    Thank you Mrs Crotta for putting up this info - I'm not very technically minded. Such a shame that Liam Hogan's research is no longer available on Storify. Perhaps anyone who is further interested could contact him - he is a Proffessor of History in University of Limerick. It gave huge insights to societal attitudes at the time harking back to Victorian times which was continued by the Church and State. Ireland was poverty stricken and the poorest of the poor suffered the most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpy Talbot View Post
    I would say that the most pertinent question one can possibly raise in any economic or social issue in relation to a controversy is always ..

    'Cui bono?' ('Who benefits?').
    Everybody except the poor. You may be certain that a lot of pockets were lined on the misfortune of others. Hence the objection from local business in Tuam when the Home closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    It is an interesting feature of the complexity of the set up that there could be real tensions between the diocesan Church and the Orders*. However if you mean "The Church" as the entire structure , the Multi-National Corporation with the HQ in Rome, it got prestige and authority in the eyes of the laity as well as money that was sent to Rome by the Orders.

    * For example the controversy between Bishop O'Dwyer of Limerick and the Bruff Christian Brothers
    I mean the whole entire church structure internationally, and I include the nuns. I am pretty sure the nuns had to contribute towards their pension plan at least. Going back in history, the Irish church probably brought on the Norman Invasion because they were not sending money on to Rome.
    People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do - Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Rose View Post
    Thank you Mrs Crotta for putting up this info - I'm not very technically minded. Such a shame that Liam Hogan's research is no longer available on Storify. Perhaps anyone who is further interested could contact him - he is a Proffessor of History in University of Limerick. It gave huge insights to societal attitudes at the time harking back to Victorian times which was continued by the Church and State. Ireland was poverty stricken and the poorest of the poor suffered the most.
    Not directly related to the Tuam Home, Dr Sean Lucey has done extensive research and published a book " The end of the Irish Poor Law - Welfare and Healthcare reform in Revolutionary and Independent Ireland".
    County homes took harsh toll on ‘unmarried mothers’. This article is interesting for those who may wish to do further research.

    It may also explain the reluctance of the Government to pursue a full enquiry on Tuam as their own State institutions had equally bad conditions with inmates unpaid servants but at least the poor occupants had reasonably decent burials albeit many in paupers graves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Rose View Post
    Not directly related to the Tuam Home, Dr Sean Lucey has done extensive research and published a book " The end of the Irish Poor Law - Welfare and Healthcare reform in Revolutionary and Independent Ireland".
    County homes took harsh toll on ‘unmarried mothers’. This article is interesting for those who may wish to do further research.

    It may also explain the reluctance of the Government to pursue a full enquiry on Tuam as their own State institutions had equally bad conditions with inmates unpaid servants but at least the poor occupants had reasonably decent burials albeit many in paupers graves.
    Welcome to P.ie Yellow Rose. You have already contributed a lot.
    People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do - Isaac Asimov

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    While D4 pats itself on the back every time some vaguely flattering and meaningless Index is released showing Ireland as being one of the best places in the known universe to live, for some partisan reason or another, it has to be said that Ireland was never a republic beyond the plaque on the wall and its status as such was meaningless.

    My grandfather told me when I was a young lad that a terrible mistake had been made in Ireland (and this was back in the late 1970s), that in getting rid of a foreign aristocracy the state had created a new aristocracy who were just as bad. And as events have transpired since I still think the man was quite perceptive considering what we have seen since.

    The taoiseach who said he was 'catholic before Irish' should have been taken out, put up against a wall and shot.

    The catholic church was and remains no better than the imperialists and should be expelled from the state for the crimes of its bishops and its orders.
    Ecclesia oportet destrui

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    Politics.ie Member Catalpast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Crotta Cliach View Post
    I mean the whole entire church structure internationally, and I include the nuns. I am pretty sure the nuns had to contribute towards their pension plan at least. Going back in history, the Irish church probably brought on the Norman Invasion because they were not sending money on to Rome.
    Going back in history, the Irish church probably brought on the Norman Invasion because they were not sending money on to Rome.


    Can't say I ever heard that one before!


    Have you a Source for that?
    If you can convince a People to engage in the mass elimination of their own offspring - you can probably get them to do anything...http://irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Rose View Post
    Not directly related to the Tuam Home, Dr Sean Lucey has done extensive research and published a book " The end of the Irish Poor Law - Welfare and Healthcare reform in Revolutionary and Independent Ireland".
    County homes took harsh toll on ‘unmarried mothers’. This article is interesting for those who may wish to do further research.

    It may also explain the reluctance of the Government to pursue a full enquiry on Tuam as their own State institutions had equally bad conditions with inmates unpaid servants but at least the poor occupants had reasonably decent burials albeit many in paupers graves.

    In 1925, the medical officer of the Kerry County Home recommended 22 of the institution’s “unmarried mothers” receive two extra eggs daily because they were “required to perform work of an objectionable nature”

    Which indicates that they were given eggs daily already...

    So large numbers of “unmarried” mothers and children remained in county homes despite the protestations of many, including the matron of the Kerry home. On March 31st, 1943, there were 583 “unmarried women” in 31 county homes in Ireland, compared to 352 in the three mother and baby homes run by the Order of the Sacred Heart – Bessborough in Cork City, Sean Ross in Roscrea and Manor Home in Castlepollard – and 201 in Tuam and Pelletstown combined.


    So 1136 women out of a population of circa 3 Million Souls


    The County Homes were hard places - they were designed to be so that only the most desperate would ever seek admission
    If you can convince a People to engage in the mass elimination of their own offspring - you can probably get them to do anything...http://irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpast View Post
    Going back in history, the Irish church probably brought on the Norman Invasion because they were not sending money on to Rome.


    Can't say I ever heard that one before!


    Have you a Source for that?
    I probably could find one if I had hours to go back through a lot of books and get you a proper cite. The church was solidly behind the Normans attacking Ireland and right behind them coming into the land, and that was the beginning of a good part of church income going off to Rome instead of being held within the family. All of the churches at the time were family organizations and the abbots positions were hereditary within the family. I'm sorry I don't have that extra time to go back and do that research properly. If it interests you, you might dig into it yourself. Fascinating time!
    People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do - Isaac Asimov

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