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Thread: Richard Hayes...Irelandís code breaker and unsung hero.

  1. #41
    Politics.ie Member Nebuchadnezzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eagle of the Ninth View Post
    That sounds really interesting. Bracken was as much of a fantasist and grifter in many ways as Joyce, but he was on the right side, wasn't he hah.
    It’s a co-production, Abbey and Lyric Theatres, so maybe it’ll play in Belfast soon or maybe it’s alreadt played there(your neck of the woods I think?).

    Written about 30 years ago by Thomas Kilroy....

    One of his favourite themes is to place the non-conformist, the eponymous outsider, the stranger at the centre of events. In Double Cross it is the doppelgšnger device. The double. Brendan Bracken, at the beginning of the war, is haunted by the Nazi propagandist Lord Haw, William Joyce. Joyce, at the end of the war in the bombed out radio station that has been his platform to the world, is haunted by the failure of his Nazi ideology to bring in a bright new fascist dawn.
    Is not this the great Babylon that I have built.....

  2. #42
    Politics.ie Member Shpake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eagle of the Ninth View Post
    That sounds really interesting. Bracken was as much of a fantasist and grifter in many ways as Joyce, but he was on the right side, wasn't he hah.
    Not one to argue a point, and good luck to you are anyone being whatcha wannabe --
    But: Brendan Bracken was true blue Irish home-grown... even Shinner material who emigrated to Australia sometime in the 20s and became enamoured of the British Empire and all things British.
    William Joyce, Lord Haw-Haw was born in New York, Father born in Ireland, mother born in England but of Anglo-Irish extraction... so fairly international. Is that where he got his affected accent? Certainly not from Galway anyway.
    "Well, OK. Fine. As long as it comes with a steady paycheck, I'd believe whatever they wanted me to believe, as the Guy in Ghostbusters said."

  3. #43
    Politics.ie Member The Eagle of the Ninth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar View Post
    It’s a co-production, Abbey and Lyric Theatres, so maybe it’ll play in Belfast soon or maybe it’s alreadt played there(your neck of the woods I think?).

    Written about 30 years ago by Thomas Kilroy....
    I missed it in Belfast, where it played between 10-27 October, as I was out of the country. It was very well reviewed in NI. The critics concentrated on the aspect of fake news: how propaganda was essential to both sides in the war. Bracken and Joyce in this interpretation, were both Irishmen who reinvented themselves as English nationalists and were engaged in crafting false narratives of Englishness itself, for different purposes.

    This would have lots of resonance in NI, of course.
    Plotting the witchcraft with my cats.

  4. #44
    Politics.ie Member The Eagle of the Ninth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shpake View Post
    Not one to argue a point, and good luck to you are anyone being whatcha wannabe --
    But: Brendan Bracken was true blue Irish home-grown... even Shinner material who emigrated to Australia sometime in the 20s and became enamoured of the British Empire and all things British.
    William Joyce, Lord Haw-Haw was born in New York, Father born in Ireland, mother born in England but of Anglo-Irish extraction... so fairly international. Is that where he got his affected accent? Certainly not from Galway anyway.
    Not a fan of Bracken, though I find him very interesting. He was a clever flambloyant opportunist, who appealed to another one, Winston Churchill.

    Re:Joyce. *Hah* Rebecca West in "The Meaning of Treason", her account of notable treason trails she attended and reported on, says that there was never really any satisfactory answer as to whether Joyce was THE Lord Haw-Haw, the original one. There was an earlier broadcaster, transmitting when Joyce was not in Germany and continuing to over-lap with him for a while, never identified conclusively, who was first dubbed "Oxford Accent" and later Lord Haw-Haw. At some point Joyce became associated with the nickname but his accent was neither Oxford nor authentic.

    It's an interesting point.
    Plotting the witchcraft with my cats.

  5. #45
    Politics.ie Member Shpake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eagle of the Ninth View Post
    Not a fan of Bracken, though I find him very interesting. He was a clever flambloyant opportunist, who appealed to another one, Winston Churchill.

    Re:Joyce. *Hah* Rebecca West in "The Meaning of Treason", her account of notable treason trails she attended and reported on, says that there was never really any satisfactory answer as to whether Joyce was THE Lord Haw-Haw, the original one. There was an earlier broadcaster, transmitting when Joyce was not in Germany and continuing to over-lap with him for a while, never identified conclusively, who was first dubbed "Oxford Accent" and later Lord Haw-Haw. At some point Joyce became associated with the nickname but his accent was neither Oxford nor authentic.

    It's an interesting point.
    Quite a fascinating article on Joyce's trial hinged on his nationality: Born in America, raised in Ireland but fled to England after independence. Then had a false German passport. So was he a traitor to the crown?
    Well Dev didn't object to his being hung as he had been "in bed" with the Black & Tans during the war of independence...
    It would seem that he may have got his grandiose accent in England where he spent some years in education.

    William Joyce - Wikipedia
    "Well, OK. Fine. As long as it comes with a steady paycheck, I'd believe whatever they wanted me to believe, as the Guy in Ghostbusters said."

  6. #46
    Politics.ie Member Nebuchadnezzar's Avatar
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    Another interesting character that the Germans dropped into Ireland was Joseph Lenihan, brother of Patrick Lenihan and uncle of Brian Lenihan Snr and Mary O’Rourke.

    Joseph Lenihan was suspected of involvement in gun running and producing false travel documents. He was convicted of forgery in 1935. He left Ireland and traveled to England in early 1940. Immediately prior to its invasion he moved to Jersey. Following the Germans arrival he attempted to return to England by motor boat but the engine broke down and he drifted ashore to France and was taken into custody by the Gestapo. Abwehr then recruited him for the purpose of setting up a covert weather station in Sligo.

    The first attempt to drop him into Ireland failed when the cabin heater in the Heinkel 111 failed during its climb to high altitude. The mission was abandoned with most of the crew suffering severe frostbite. Lenihan himself lost several toes and the skin on his hands was severely damaged. 6 months later, 18 July 1941, a second attempt was made and he successfully landed near Summerhill, Co Meath. He had with him two radio transmitters, £500, G-Tinten invisible ink, 3 novels containing coded messages and a morse code key. After a number of days he unexpectedly arrived at the home of his brother, nephew and niece. Thereafter, he made his way to Dundalk, on his sister in law’s bicycle, and then for reasons unknown decided to cross the border and hand himself into the RUC. MI5 considered using him as a double agent but decided against it given that he had been at large for too long and they felt that the risk of german discovery of his true situation was too great.
    Is not this the great Babylon that I have built.....

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    Politics.ie Member Oliver Cromwell McIvor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ireniall View Post
    Like the British did with poor old Turing.
    Thanks Niall. You've inadvertently led me to a rather good film which I'm watching now (The Imitation Game).
    "ďMohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. Islam in a man is like rabies in a Dog."

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    Politics.ie Member Oliver Cromwell McIvor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar View Post
    Joseph Lenihan unexpectedly arrived at the home of his.... nephew.
    Brian Lenihan Senior?
    "ďMohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. Islam in a man is like rabies in a Dog."

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    Politics.ie Member TheWexfordInn's Avatar
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    i've done the tour of Bletchley Park, its run by geeky type of people who go into great detail about exactly who did what where and what role everyone played and gives out loads of technical detail about the Turing Bombe and the other early computer they still have working there that they used for de-encrypting messages from that later encryption device the Germans used that was more fiendishly complicated than the Enigma.
    A great day out for the geek, probably not an ideal day out for the whole family.

    They were very open to credit everyone involved in the whole code cracking mularkey, in particular the Poles to which end they have constructed a monument to commemorate the Polish contribution to the whole code breaking effort.

    But there was no mention of Richard Hayes and I'm sure they would have if he had paid a key role in the Alliied code breaking process. I find it hard to put the work of Richard Hayes in to context and to work out how significant it was in the whole scheme of things.
    Maybe I need to read the book mentioned in this thread.

  10. #50
    Politics.ie Member Nebuchadnezzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWexfordInn View Post
    i've done the tour of Bletchley Park, its run by geeky type of people who go into great detail about exactly who did what where and what role everyone played and gives out loads of technical detail about the Turing Bombe and the other early computer they still have working there that they used for de-encrypting messages from that later encryption device the Germans used that was more fiendishly complicated than the Enigma.
    A great day out for the geek, probably not an ideal day out for the whole family.

    They were very open to credit everyone involved in the whole code cracking mularkey, in particular the Poles to which end they have constructed a monument to commemorate the Polish contribution to the whole code breaking effort.

    But there was no mention of Richard Hayes and I'm sure they would have if he had paid a key role in the Alliied code breaking process. I find it hard to put the work of Richard Hayes in to context and to work out how significant it was in the whole scheme of things.
    Maybe I need to read the book mentioned in this thread.
    I suspect that there are two elements here....

    I think the author has bigged up his achievements a little too much and the specifics of what he actually achieved and the value of that does seem vague....in his concluding chapter he states that “Hayes’ work was crucial to the winning of the war”.

    However, his achievements and the cooperation between Irish and British military intelligence does seem to have been very significant. Mc Menamin says that Richard Hayes received an invitation to meet Churchill in 1945 and that at this secret meeting that he received a medal in recognition of his work. Churchill is reported to have been particularly impressed by his breaking of the GŲrtz ciphers, his discovery of the microdot system and his work on O’Reilly’s disc cipher. McMenamin goes on to say that Hayes undertook to never publicly acknowledge that this meeting ever took place or that he received any medal. Unfortunately he doesn’t give any source for this account. However, I read separately that Hayes’ daughter, Faery, say that her father met Churchill and received “some medal”.

    It seems that his achievements and that close cooperation between British and Irish military intelligence would have been embarrassing for the Irish government if it became public knowledge. Perhaps that may explain the lack of recognition and awareness of his work.
    Is not this the great Babylon that I have built.....

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