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Thread: What caused the explosion in construction costs such as the James children's hospital project?

  1. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patslatt1 View Post
    Well documented where?
    Leo's Capitulation on mandatory disclosure?

    Pat Leahy had an excellent summation in the Irish Times and the Phoenix magazine did also

    Less shouting and more legislating by TDs would have served Vicky Phelan better


    https://www.thephoenix.ie/article/le...on-disclosures

    Basically the doctors tell Holohan what to do and Holohan tells Leo. The doctors Taoiseach

  2. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schuhart View Post
    She could have taken a 145 bus; 17 minute journey, departs every 10 minutes. I'd love to see the "heavy equipment" she says she was carrying.

    That said, we all need a mental shift on car usage. The lack of any guaranteed carparking for anyone (even people with children in intensive care) at Great Ormond Street does highlight the distance we have to go to change unrealistic expectations.
    Or she could get a taxi. Some people do tend to lose the run of themselves when it comes to parking.

    I had to attend a meeting at another hospital, parked in what I thought was wasteland and got a ticket for my crime. When I rang the parking police to see if I could appeal, they told me the judge had a particular dislike of doctors who did that and was quite liable to increase the fine substantially. I decided not to test the veracity of their story.

  3. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardillaun View Post
    Or she could get a taxi. Some people do tend to lose the run of themselves when it comes to parking.

    I had to attend a meeting at another hospital, parked in what I thought was wasteland and got a ticket for my crime. When I rang the parking police to see if I could appeal, they told me the judge had a particular dislike of doctors who did that and was quite liable to increase the fine substantially. I decided not to test the veracity of their story.
    Well it took a judge to highlight the HSE's inadequate vetting of doctors while they have also repeatedly flagged the need for reform of the disgusting treatment of mothers who suffer negligence at birth.
    Its a shame senior management in the health service dont share this concern for patients.

  4. #234
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    Having some experience of large complex projects, I commented on the project back in Feb 2017 to effect that
    “having good estimates for actual total project costs and time scale to operational status are crucial factors in estimating large projects. The most difficult part of novel and complex projects is risk assessment. For more experienced people, the combination of complexity, uncertainty and irreversible decisions emphasises the importance for risk averse behaviour and a precautionary approach.

    Listening to the Board spokesperson - lets focus on the benefits and the needs and the great project we will have when its all finished – is a classical presentation approach for a project that is already doomed to failure. Reminded me of a Trump sales pitch for a new casino. This is not a personal criticism of the spokesperson herself; she was doing her best with an impossible situation in my view.

    The St James Children’s Hospital is a complete and total financial disaster that is unfolding before our eyes. The Government must restart the whole project again. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but this project just screams financial disaster to me.” Ends

    The damage was done by the previous government. The political imperative was to get the project approved at St. James and lots of decision short cuts and under-estimations were deliberately taken in my view. The present government had option to stall and review, but did not have the political courage to do so.

    Seems to me the present cost justification is an exercise for now; sufficient to keep the project moving along to the next crisis phase. The idea that the final cost of the project is now settled is a fallacy.

  5. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnoc a Leassa View Post
    Having some experience of large complex projects, I commented on the project back in Feb 2017 to effect that
    “having good estimates for actual total project costs and time scale to operational status are crucial factors in estimating large projects. The most difficult part of novel and complex projects is risk assessment. For more experienced people, the combination of complexity, uncertainty and irreversible decisions emphasises the importance for risk averse behaviour and a precautionary approach.

    Listening to the Board spokesperson - lets focus on the benefits and the needs and the great project we will have when its all finished – is a classical presentation approach for a project that is already doomed to failure. Reminded me of a Trump sales pitch for a new casino. This is not a personal criticism of the spokesperson herself; she was doing her best with an impossible situation in my view.

    The St James Children’s Hospital is a complete and total financial disaster that is unfolding before our eyes. The Government must restart the whole project again. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but this project just screams financial disaster to me.” Ends

    The damage was done by the previous government. The political imperative was to get the project approved at St. James and lots of decision short cuts and under-estimations were deliberately taken in my view. The present government had option to stall and review, but did not have the political courage to do so.

    Seems to me the present cost justification is an exercise for now; sufficient to keep the project moving along to the next crisis phase. The idea that the final cost of the project is now settled is a fallacy.
    In view of the hearing at the Oireachtas health committee, would you change the above criticism? Costello testified that the contract was awarded based on a preliminary design in which the materials required were recognised but their costs were completely underestimated due to complexity.

  6. #236
    Politics.ie Member wombat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patslatt1 View Post
    Costello testified that the contract was awarded based on a preliminary design in which the materials required were recognised but their costs were completely underestimated due to complexity.
    Its obvious they went to tender before the scope had been developed sufficiently. Perhaps some of our IT experts can comment on increased cabling costs - what is it needed for? If the footprint of the hospital has not changed, why is extra cabling needed?Surely doctors will use wireless devices like tablets for communication? It looks like the TDs are more interested in grandstanding than digging into details of cost increases.
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  7. #237
    Politics.ie Member clearmurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    Its obvious they went to tender before the scope had been developed sufficiently. Perhaps some of our IT experts can comment on increased cabling costs - what is it needed for? If the footprint of the hospital has not changed, why is extra cabling needed?Surely doctors will use wireless devices like tablets for communication? It looks like the TDs are more interested in grandstanding than digging into details of cost increases.
    How many "consultants" are involved?

  8. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patslatt1 View Post
    In view of the hearing at the Oireachtas health committee, would you change the above criticism? Costello testified that the contract was awarded based on a preliminary design in which the materials required were recognised but their costs were completely underestimated due to complexity.
    Like intangibles in value judgements, retrospective complexity is the last shelter for either incompetence or a deliberate rush to get the project approved.
    Last edited by Cnoc a Leassa; 19th January 2019 at 04:18 PM.

  9. #239
    Politics.ie Member wombat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clearmurk View Post
    How many "consultants" are involved?
    Irrelevant, the claim is that quantities have changed, the question is why?
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  10. #240
    Politics.ie Member clearmurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat View Post
    Irrelevant, the claim is that quantities have changed, the question is why?
    The proposal before the house is that the cost of a project increases directly in proportion to the number of consultancies involved.

    More consultants = more likelihood of Rolls Royce solutions being pursued.

    And why not? The state will fork the bill, nobody pays the price, except the citizens of course. Wonderful thing, the capacity to levy taxes. Whether to line your personal bank account, or to provide the best for the best.

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