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Thread: What is the end game of the Israeli State/Zionism?

  1. #131
    Politics.ie Member james toney's Avatar
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    Where are all these full and equal rights that Palestinians have..the same as israelis? Still no proof.
    "You think thats bad,theres one lunatic that posts on there 40-50 times a day..He's alone..in bad company!

  2. #132
    Politics.ie Member Golah veNekhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedfreak View Post
    Ratio I note you have recently pointed to three historical cases of Zionists criticising their own community's treatment of the Arab community, that were big events in Zionist domestic debate.

    But in the critiques you are identifying, each time, massive improvements were made and specific actions taken on foot of these no doubt harsh criticisms.


    Well I put it to you wouldn't it be great if the Arabs had ever made such criticisms of themselves? Of their own treatment of the Jews? Now no doubt, one or two have tried, but what was their fate? Were their criticisms considered, or were they denounced as "traitors"?

    Yes, examine Arab culture and you find that self-criticism and/or questioning of religious teachings and state leadership and anything else really is forbidden and culturally brings shame, dishonour and violence to those who try.

    Actually it's the same kind of problem we have in this country. We're so great at waving any self-criticisms the Jews have done in their faces and saying, see, you say it yourself, so it must be true, etc! But we rarely dare to self criticise ourselves in any real, meaningful terms. (I've certainly tried it and been denounced as a 'traitor' etc.)
    The underlined is nonsense- things are becoming worse and worse for "Arab-Israelis". A vast bulk of them now survive on charity from the rest of the Levant.

    Look you have got to give up finding right wing Zionist websites and crude propaganda to suit your prejudices. One of the greatest crimes of Zionism was the destruction of Judaeo-Arabic culture, in most times and places Jews were a fully integrated part of the Islamic world that de facto were treated the same or even better than your average Muslims, at times they were not but those were much rarer. Speaking of Judaeo-Christian culture is nonsensical but there were Judaeo-Islamic cultures.

    You obviously know extremely little about Levantine Muslim culture which also has it's pathologies there is no denying however Islam has the widest spectrum of belief of all of the three Abrahamic Faiths. Since the disappearance of the 12 th Iman there has never been a central authority in Islam outside of the Aga Khan and Seveners are a very minor group while intellectually and culturally group- Islam is quite anarchic, which leads to problems of it's own. Yes Muslims have a pathological honour/shame thing and yes the family is important to an often pathological degree among Muslims. However over all Islamic culture is superior on a human as opposed to money making level, and I say that because I know you will pull out that card, to Jewish culture. And I say this as someone who has been around both Muslims and Jews.
    In Jerusalem, I dressed my wounds and breathed my sorrows
    And carried the soul in my palm, For an Arab Palestine.

  3. #133
    Politics.ie Member Speedfreak's Avatar
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    Just to note for readers here, what Toney is refering to above is "full and equal rights" particularly voting rights for all Palestinians, including refugees taken in the context of the BDS campaign:

    "They [BDS] don't want Israel, they think they're being very clever. They call it their three tiers... We want the end of the occupation, we want the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever, because they know the result of implementing all three is what? What's the result? You know and I know what's the result: there's no Israel..."
    (source)

    The point being, this is coming from place less about concern for the Palestinians, or indeed the millions of Arabs living in totalitarian regimes across the middle east, and more about a strategy to end Israel's existence. In fact it has nothing to do with anything at all apart from attacking Israel.

  4. #134
    Politics.ie Member Golah veNekhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedfreak View Post
    There were a number who pointed out exactly where Oslo would lead. E.g. Arafat's Grand Strategy :: Middle East Quarterly But the world told Israel that they had no need to fear, and the majority of Israelis believed it too, whole-heartedly, and that they must do this for a chance at peace, but they little realised what it would ultimately lead to, and the renewed wars and intifadas against them, built on the concessions they had made, and launched right from their doorstep this time, rather than from a neighboring Arab country.
    Professor Israel Shahak opposed Olso though because he felt primarily that it left the Arab Israelis and Palestinian refugees in the cold, and that what Arafat agreed to was basically a glorified Bantustan- he even opposed Co Ghaddafi's peace plan because he was for full integration. Bit different from Daniel Pipes and his ilk. Israel never had any intention of honouring the Oslo accords but it has now the Palestinian Authority which gives a fig leaf that it does not pay for to impose Zionism on the West Bank- as Israel Shahak predicted.
    In Jerusalem, I dressed my wounds and breathed my sorrows
    And carried the soul in my palm, For an Arab Palestine.

  5. #135
    Politics.ie Member Golah veNekhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedfreak View Post
    Just to note for readers here, what Toney is refering to above is "full and equal rights" particularly voting rights for all Palestinians, including refugees taken in the context of the BDS campaign:

    "They [BDS] don't want Israel, they think they're being very clever. They call it their three tiers... We want the end of the occupation, we want the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever, because they know the result of implementing all three is what? What's the result? You know and I know what's the result: there's no Israel..."
    (source)

    The point being, this is coming from place less about concern for the Palestinians, or indeed the millions of Arabs living in totalitarian regimes across the middle east, and more about a strategy to end Israel's existence. In fact it has nothing to do with anything at all apart from attacking Israel.
    The states in the region outside of Qatar which is it's own complicated story that could justly be considered totalitarian Israel is allied to. Israel and Saudi Arabia are basically the same as regards social injustice and state brutality. So if you think the House of Saud offers a role model than yes Israel is great.
    In Jerusalem, I dressed my wounds and breathed my sorrows
    And carried the soul in my palm, For an Arab Palestine.

  6. #136
    Politics.ie Member Speedfreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golah veNekhar View Post
    Professor Israel Shahak ...
    Ah yes. David Duke's favourite Jew being held up yet again.

    Point being the likes of Ilan Pappé, Israel Shahak et al represent an extreme fringe of Israeli society.

    Imagine people in other countries pretending that say Lenny Murphy represented the voice of truth and reality in Ireland.

    I'm not saying the above were murderous pychopaths like Lenny Murphy, but you get the point. Maybe say the likes of Mick Wallace would be a better example (if he was much more extreme in his views).

  7. #137
    Politics.ie Member Clanrickard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golah veNekhar View Post
    Proves nothing. The Supreme Court overruled that law in 2007 and ruled the JNF could not discriminate on the grounds of ethnicity. Bigot.

    Quote Originally Posted by james toney View Post
    Read what you said....it's funny that you made such a ludicrous claim.... Any proof that Palestinians have full rights?
    Quote Originally Posted by james toney View Post
    Where are all these full and equal rights that Palestinians have..the same as israelis? Still no proof.
    You don't know how this works do you? Someone made a claim there were 40 or so laws that discriminate against Arab Israelis. I asked her to name these laws. She couldn't and cannot because Israeli law is clear. It is is illegal to discriminate on the basis of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation and has been for decades. There are Arab officers in the army, Judges, and in many other walks of life including the speaker of the Knesset at one stage. Now you are a bullsh*tter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golah veNekhar View Post
    The states in the region outside of Qatar which is it's own complicated story that could justly be considered totalitarian Israel is allied to. Israel and Saudi Arabia are basically the same as regards social injustice and state brutality. So if you think the House of Saud offers a role model than yes Israel is great.

  8. #138
    Politics.ie Member Golah veNekhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedfreak View Post
    Just to note for readers here, what Toney is refering to above is "full and equal rights" particularly voting rights for all Palestinians, including refugees taken in the context of the BDS campaign:

    "They [BDS] don't want Israel, they think they're being very clever. They call it their three tiers... We want the end of the occupation, we want the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever, because they know the result of implementing all three is what? What's the result? You know and I know what's the result: there's no Israel..."
    (source)

    The point being, this is coming from place less about concern for the Palestinians, or indeed the millions of Arabs living in totalitarian regimes across the middle east, and more about a strategy to end Israel's existence. In fact it has nothing to do with anything at all apart from attacking Israel.
    I want the end of Israel as a Jewish State because in part that will make sure that nearly every Jewish child in Palestine gets two decent meals a day. The thing is that the two state solution is no longer possible- as Gideon Levy has said the Settlers have won. Maybe there was a time you did but now you do not oppose the Settler project. It is only a matter of time before the so-called "Palestinian Authority" collapses because it has lost all legitimacy with the Palestinians- and than the illusion of a two state solution will be gone. You know it is gone as much as anyone else. So what do we have than? An Apartheid regime far more brutal than South Africa could ever imagined.
    In Jerusalem, I dressed my wounds and breathed my sorrows
    And carried the soul in my palm, For an Arab Palestine.

  9. #139
    Politics.ie Member Golah veNekhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedfreak View Post
    Ah yes. David Duke's favourite Jew being held up yet again.

    Point being the likes of Ilan Pappé, Israel Shahak et al represent an extreme fringe of Israeli society.

    Imagine people in other countries pretending that say Lenny Murphy represented the voice of truth and reality in Ireland.

    I'm not saying the above were murderous pychopaths like Lenny Murphy, but you get the point. Maybe say the likes of Mick Wallace would be a better example (if he was much more extreme in his views).
    David Duke is a serious creep. However you and him are incredibly similar. The reason he hates Jews so much is obvious- he has a ton of typically Jewish cultural pathologies himself.
    In Jerusalem, I dressed my wounds and breathed my sorrows
    And carried the soul in my palm, For an Arab Palestine.

  10. #140
    Politics.ie Member Clanrickard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golah veNekhar View Post
    I want the end of Israel as a Jewish State because in part that will make sure that nearly every Jewish child in Palestine gets two decent meals a day. The thing is that the two state solution is no longer possible- as Gideon Levy has said the Settlers have won. Maybe there was a time you did but now you do not oppose the Settler project. It is only a matter of time before the so-called "Palestinian Authority" collapses because it has lost all legitimacy with the Palestinians- and than the illusion of a two state solution will be gone. You know it is gone as much as anyone else. So what do we have than? An Apartheid regime far more brutal than South Africa could ever imagined.

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