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Thread: What is the end game of the Israeli State/Zionism?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by redneck View Post
    The idea of a state run by a religion has had it's day. There has been:
    There was a Catholic state in Ireland from 1860-1996
    A Protestant state for a Protestant people in N.I from 1900 - 1998
    An apartheid state in South Africa from 1900 - 1996
    An apartheid state in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe from 1900-1988
    A Muslim state in Egypt, Jordan and Syria until the 1980's
    Finally a Communist state in Russia, ended in 1996.

    A country with close ties to religion does not work- like all others a Jewish state for a Jewish people will come to an end.

    That particular model may work for a 50 or 60 years but it will collapse eventually. People cannot be forced to go to religious services.
    South Africa wasn't a state in 1900.

    The Union of South Africa was founded in 1910.

    Union of South Africa - Wikipedia
    We appreciate the move by the Government today and remind ourselves that it is a bail-out by taxpayers for the banks. Pearse Doherty

  2. #32
    Politics.ie Member redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBP voter View Post
    South Africa wasn't a state in 1900.

    The Union of South Africa was founded in 1910.

    Union of South Africa - Wikipedia
    No that is strictly true, but the white settlers had already taken power by 1910. It was just the rubber stamping of their power in 1910. Same as in Ireland, in the South, the Catholic church had basic control in Dublin by late 1800's. Same as in the North, the Loyalists and Orange order had control long before it was rubber stamped in 1922.
    Lets keep Dublin litter free- Coinnigh Atha Cliatha glŠn

  3. #33
    Politics.ie Member Degeneration X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBP voter View Post
    South Africa wasn't a state in 1900.

    The Union of South Africa was founded in 1910.

    Union of South Africa - Wikipedia
    Actually it was, the area around the Transvaal was known as the South African Republic during the Boer War.

  4. #34
    Politics.ie Member Golah veNekhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedfreak View Post
    Most who will no doubt post on this thread are little interested in the actual reality of Jewish national aspiration. They just want to project their own ideas onto this aspiration. No doubt they may find a case or two somewhere or other that would appear to bear out their projection. But the point is that the central tenet of today's antisemitic movement holds that Zionism is the problem (itís not the Jews, itís Israel). So that's how these projections ought to be understood. As to the reality? Well one thing to consider is that for all the undeniable problems, there is no place, today, where the Arabs are as free as in Israel.
    That is an incredibly insane statement but it is also one that a lot of Zionist Jews actually believe- okay we ban Arabs within the Green Line from building housing and owning land in the vast majority of the country, we have it so that almost half of them rely on charity from the rest of the region to eat, we have fifty or so laws discriminating against them within the Green Line, we discriminate against insanely when it comes to employment, in the words of a Shin Bet agent interviewed in the Zionist book "Rise and Kill First" within the Green Line is full of mass graves and he was not talking about the mass graves of the first Nabka, attacks on Mosques and Churches always go unpunished within the Green Line, and on and on and on.....But there is no place today where Arabs are as free as in Israel, how do we know this? Because it just must be the case.
    In Jerusalem, I dressed my wounds and breathed my sorrows
    And carried the soul in my palm, For an Arab Palestine.

  5. #35
    Politics.ie Member Golah veNekhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sync View Post
    The end result will be a 2 state solution with some of the illegal settlements being closed and some of them staying. "Something" will be done with Jerusalem.

    The elements needed to get there include
    • Moderate Israeli govt
    • Stable Palestinian govt
    • Sustained period of peace where Israeli voters feel safe enough to back such a deal
    • Strong US (And Non-ME international) backing to the 2 state solution
    • Stable ME environment that A: Clearly recognises Israel's right to exist, does away with sanctions etc, fully agrees to the borders agreed as being non-negotiable and B: Willing to work financially with Palestine to build it up into a functioning economy.


    We're some distance from a few of those requirements.
    Given the extent of the Settlements there is no way that any Israeli government will do anything about them- doing so would be political suicide. The Palestinian Authority has lost all legitimacy in the eyes of the vast majority of indigenous Palestinians. Most of the governments in the Middle East have recognized Israel within it's initial borders. Hamas have even said for a long time now that they could live with them. The thing is that the safer Israeli Jews feel the more sadistic they are to the indigenous population and the less likely they are even willing to think about some workable settlement with the Palestinians.
    In Jerusalem, I dressed my wounds and breathed my sorrows
    And carried the soul in my palm, For an Arab Palestine.

  6. #36
    Politics.ie Member Golah veNekhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telstar 62 View Post
    The Jews are the only ones in that beautiful list who have no interest whatsoever
    in converting anyone to their religion.
    This wasn't always true though- in various times and places Judaism spread itself by the sword. We should never forget that the Proto-Islam of the Arab invasions of the Seventh century was a form of Judaism.
    In Jerusalem, I dressed my wounds and breathed my sorrows
    And carried the soul in my palm, For an Arab Palestine.

  7. #37
    Politics.ie Member redneck's Avatar
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    I can see a situation in the future where Egypt takes control of Gaza and possibly Jordan takes or at least shares power on the West bank.
    That is probably the only outcome for Palestinians. Egypt has a huge tank army and the Israelis would not relish taking them on. It also has 60 million population. Jordan is a fairly stable country, population 8 million. And with the backing of the Russia/China could absorb the West bank.
    Hopefully in Israel itself- more moderate parties could take over and lessen the Zionist control there. Finally I hope the Christian population of the middle East can survive and maybe even grow.
    Lets keep Dublin litter free- Coinnigh Atha Cliatha glŠn

  8. #38
    Politics.ie Member redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golah veNekhar View Post
    This wasn't always true though- in various times and places Judaism spread itself by the sword. We should never forget that the Proto-Islam of the Arab invasions of the Seventh century was a form of Judaism.
    Telstar is a British Israeli. He believes that Israeli Jews and Ulster Unionists are descended from a Biblical tribe. And they have a direct line to God- and can do no wrong!
    I support and admire the beautiful Jewish religion by the way. It is the basis of the Judaeo-Christian religion which I am a follower.
    Last edited by redneck; 6th January 2019 at 03:05 AM.
    Lets keep Dublin litter free- Coinnigh Atha Cliatha glŠn

  9. #39
    Politics.ie Member Golah veNekhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedfreak View Post
    Chosen schmozen. Herzl simply came to believe that antisemitism could not be defeated or cured, only avoided, and that the only way to avoid it was the establishment of a Jewish state. Our own Michael Davitt after studying the problems in Russia came to the exact same conclusion a few years later. Thoughtful people recognised Herzl's truth back at it's beginning just as many thoughtful people do today. I for example cannot avoid the same conclusion reading the contributions of morons on this very forum, today. As Herzl put it, "... Above all, I recognized the emptiness and futility of trying to 'combat' anti-semitism...". It would certainly seem that "plus ca change c'est la meme chose."
    Michael Davitt did not study the problem in any depth though- I will open a thread on the Jewish Question in 19 th century Russia however in the mean time people should read the book Two Hundred Years Together by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (note to Speedfreak and roc_-reading actual books is a better use of your time than reading right wing websites). Herzl said those things because he essentially agreed with nearly everything that the anti-Semites of his day said about Jews. However he put that down to Jews living in a diaspora and that all the failings of Jewry were down to the "Exile". However there was no "Exile"- there was the banning of Jews from entering Jerusalem but that is not the same thing. The "Exile" never happened.
    In Jerusalem, I dressed my wounds and breathed my sorrows
    And carried the soul in my palm, For an Arab Palestine.

  10. #40
    Politics.ie Member Golah veNekhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedfreak View Post
    An important one. But the list is literally endless. Cuisine, humour, racial characteristics, shared experience of persecution, social and cultural mores, familial values, and so on and so on.
    Yemeni Jews very often look radically different from North African Jews who again look different from Levantine Jewry who again look radically different from Yiddish Jews/Ostjuden. Cuisine? You honestly believe that Jews in Yemen ate the same things as Jews in whatever Shtel your ancestors came from- or even Jews in France and Britain? What is called "Jewish humour" is basically Yiddish humour.

    Modern Hebrew is an invented language- an invented language more over that has done a terrible amount of damage to Jews by destroying the vast majority of their heritage in Yiddish and Arabic.

    And yes Judaism is basically what defines a Jew- true there personality traits that have been shaped by that Religion and remain even when people completely secularize, but that is the case only when people do not integrate into the wider society.
    In Jerusalem, I dressed my wounds and breathed my sorrows
    And carried the soul in my palm, For an Arab Palestine.

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