106 years ago today; Ireland could be partitioned to enable Home Rule

McTell

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
6,577
Twitter
No
The third Home Rule Bill was introduced by the Liberal government on 11 April 1912, relying on support from Redmond's party and the British Labour party. It was Redmond's lifetime dream come true, and he announced: "If I may say so reverently, I personally thank God that I have lived to see this day".


Predictable howls of opposition arose from Conservative and Unionist MPs. Even the modest degree of freedom proposed in the Bill would run the risk of a minority here being swamped, because of the fear that "Home Rule is Rome Rule". The new parliament would have to be subsidised for at least 6 years. The House of Lords opposition would be overruled. It was going to interfere with the summer holidays.


So with more tact than sense, a Liberal MP suggested on 11 June 1912 that maybe four, just four, of the 32 counties could be excluded from the area to be Home Ruled. For some reason, probably bad schooling, I was under the impression that it was Carson & Co who suggested partition. Not a bit of it, turns out it was originally proposed by one of our allies.

Carson wanted the whole Bill rejected, by any means, but ended up agreeing to 6 counties from 1913, as we all know.



Mr. AGAR-ROBARTES I beg to move, in Sub-section (1) after the word "shall" ["there shall be in Ireland"], to insert the words "subject to the counties of Antrim, Armagh, Down, and Londonderry being excluded from the provisions of this Act." I propose this Amendment as an honest attempt to solve one of the most complex questions in connection with the government of Ireland. It is an attempt to remove what has been in the past a stumbling block to similar Bills on similar occasions. I, for one, am sincerely anxious of seeing some measure of Home Rule carried into law. If my Amendment is accepted it will rule out the four counties of Antrim, Armagh, Down, and Londonderry, and thus remove one of the chief obstacles to Home Rule. I think this Bill makes the mistake of treating Ireland not as two nations, but as one nation. I think everyone will admit that Ireland consists of two nations different in sentiment, character, history, and religion. ……




https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jun/11/clause-1-establishment-of-irish


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Agar-Robartes
 


Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
45,623
Evetually, we had enough and wanted to get out of the last "sovereignty pooling" arrangement that we were involved in.
 

ScoobyDoo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
923
The third Home Rule Bill was introduced by the Liberal government on 11 April 1912, relying on support from Redmond's party and the British Labour party. It was Redmond's lifetime dream come true, and he announced: "If I may say so reverently, I personally thank God that I have lived to see this day".


Predictable howls of opposition arose from Conservative and Unionist MPs. Even the modest degree of freedom proposed in the Bill would run the risk of a minority here being swamped, because of the fear that "Home Rule is Rome Rule". The new parliament would have to be subsidised for at least 6 years. The House of Lords opposition would be overruled. It was going to interfere with the summer holidays.


So with more tact than sense, a Liberal MP suggested on 11 June 1912 that maybe four, just four, of the 32 counties could be excluded from the area to be Home Ruled. For some reason, probably bad schooling, I was under the impression that it was Carson & Co who suggested partition. Not a bit of it, turns out it was originally proposed by one of our allies.

Carson wanted the whole Bill rejected, by any means, but ended up agreeing to 6 counties from 1913, as we all know.



Mr. AGAR-ROBARTES I beg to move, in Sub-section (1) after the word "shall" ["there shall be in Ireland"], to insert the words "subject to the counties of Antrim, Armagh, Down, and Londonderry being excluded from the provisions of this Act." I propose this Amendment as an honest attempt to solve one of the most complex questions in connection with the government of Ireland. It is an attempt to remove what has been in the past a stumbling block to similar Bills on similar occasions. I, for one, am sincerely anxious of seeing some measure of Home Rule carried into law. If my Amendment is accepted it will rule out the four counties of Antrim, Armagh, Down, and Londonderry, and thus remove one of the chief obstacles to Home Rule. I think this Bill makes the mistake of treating Ireland not as two nations, but as one nation. I think everyone will admit that Ireland consists of two nations different in sentiment, character, history, and religion. ……




https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jun/11/clause-1-establishment-of-irish


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Agar-Robartes


They were right.

Home Rule was Rome Rule
 

Telstar 62

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2013
Messages
26,604
Passed in 1914 - but that wasn't enough for the unelected
1916 Rising Fascists - who couldn't wait for the end of WW1...:shock:
 

Toland

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
63,162
Website
www.aggressive-secularist.com
They were right.

Home Rule was Rome Rule
I don't think it's any coincidence that the collapse of the RCC in Ireland is happening in parallel with a ground shift in Northern Irish opinion.

They were indeed right. Home rule (and independence) was Rome Rule.
But that is no longer so.
 

Roll_On

Well-known member
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
17,544
Interesting. A Northern Ireland without a Fermanagh or Tyrone would have been quite different. Perhaps no Omagh bombing would've happened for instance. However with a combined current population of 240,000, mostly Catholics, I don't think the smaller NI would be significantly more Protestant than the existing one is now in 2018. I think the iconography of Loyalism and the naming of NI institutions as 'Ulster' this and 'Ulster' that would've been muted somewhat.
 

Toland

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
63,162
Website
www.aggressive-secularist.com
Interesting. A Northern Ireland without a Fermanagh or Tyrone would have been quite different. Perhaps no Omagh bombing would've happened for instance. However with a combined current population of 240,000, mostly Catholics, I don't think it would be significantly more Protestant than it is now in 2018.
If it had been four counties there would be no question of a border poll now. That's for sure.
 

ScoobyDoo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
923
I don't think it's any coincidence that the collapse of the RCC in Ireland is happening in parallel with a ground shift in Northern Irish opinion.

They were indeed right. Home rule (and independence) was Rome Rule.
But that is no longer so.

So now the Free State can rejoin the UK again now there Papist tendencies are gone?
 

Niall996

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2011
Messages
11,823
Interesting. A Northern Ireland without a Fermanagh or Tyrone would have been quite different. Perhaps no Omagh bombing would've happened for instance. However with a combined current population of 240,000, mostly Catholics, I don't think the smaller NI would be significantly more Protestant than the existing one is now in 2018. I think the iconography of Loyalism and the naming of NI institutions as 'Ulster' this and 'Ulster' that would've been muted somewhat.
As far as the PUL's are concerned they think it's up to them to decide what Ulster is and what it isn't. If they want to call Lough Neagh Ulster that's their perogative because, well, they're the PUL's.
 

Niall996

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2011
Messages
11,823
So now the Free State can rejoin the UK again now there Papist tendencies are gone?
Never been more reason not to want to 'rejoin' (as if we 'joined' in the first place).
 

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
45,623
So now the Free State can rejoin the UK again now there Papist tendencies are gone?
We stopped being "free" when we signed the treaty of Mass-tricked.

It is an unfree state.
 

Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
25,564
I don't think it's any coincidence that the collapse of the RCC in Ireland is happening in parallel with a ground shift in Northern Irish opinion.

They were indeed right. Home rule (and independence) was Rome Rule.
But that is no longer so.
If Ireland had its own Parliament incl all 32 counties

- then the influence of the Catholic Church would have been considerably reduced...

It should be noted that the Protestant Churches of Ireland were as socially conservative as the Catholic Church

- as can be seen even today with their opposition to Abortion


Even the Orange Order is against it

As we approach the referendum on the repeal of the Eighth Amendment on the Constitution of the Republic of Ireland we call upon our members, supporters and friends - eligible to exercise their democratic right - to vote No.
“The government has made it clear, if the Eighth Amendment is repealed, it intends to introduce new legislation, including permitting unrestricted abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.
“The Bible is clear: Children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Psalm 127:3.”
 

Fritzbox

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2012
Messages
2,578
They were right.

Home Rule was Rome Rule
How can that be? There was no Home Rule for Ireland in the end - just Home Rule in NI and an independent free state/republic for the rest of the country.
 

Glaucon

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
8,337
I don't think it's any coincidence that the collapse of the RCC in Ireland is happening in parallel with a ground shift in Northern Irish opinion.
It's been a long time since the RCC held real political power in Ireland. As for a ground shift in "Northern Irish opinion", this is not consonant with the facts. Northern Irish Protestants remain overwhelmingly hostile to a united Ireland in all polls carried out on the question. You don't negate centuries of hostility to the "old enemy" in a few years thanks to gay marriage, contraception and abortion. Let's be serious here.

Home Rule may have been Rome Rule, it's certain that what Nationalists got in the Six County statelet was even worse.
 
Last edited:

Quebecoise

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
Messages
361
If the Unionists were so against Home Rule, then why did they implement it for Stormont? I mean if the Irish weren't fit for self-rule, surely that includes the Ulster Unionists too?

It is one of histories great 'what ifs'. What if the six counties were continued to be run by Westminster as they had been for the previous 120 years, would the Troubles have broken out in the 60s?
 

redmonite

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
1,416
If the Unionists were so against Home Rule, then why did they implement it for Stormont? I mean if the Irish weren't fit for self-rule, surely that includes the Ulster Unionists too?

It is one of histories great 'what ifs'. What if the six counties were continued to be run by Westminster as they had been for the previous 120 years, would the Troubles have broken out in the 60s?
Yes, it was quite ironic that the only people to get home rule were the Ulster unionists.
 

parentheses

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
13,967
If the Unionists were so against Home Rule, then why did they implement it for Stormont? I mean if the Irish weren't fit for self-rule, surely that includes the Ulster Unionists too?

It is one of histories great 'what ifs'. What if the six counties were continued to be run by Westminster as they had been for the previous 120 years, would the Troubles have broken out in the 60s?
The Unionists didn't even ask for home rule. Home Rule for Ulster was dreamed up by the British.
 

Lord Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
May 29, 2013
Messages
3,893
We stopped being "free" when we signed the treaty of Mass-tricked.

It is an unfree state.
It wasn't free before Maastrict. It was a weird, repressed place run by fundamentalist headbangers.
 

McTell

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
6,577
Twitter
No
The Unionists didn't even ask for home rule. Home Rule for Ulster was dreamed up by the British.

It was in the 1920 Act, that we ignored, and so it's not taught in our school history. The Act was ridiculously over-engineered, but on the plus side the 2 home rule states of SI and NI could vote to unite thru a Council of Ireland. Unity became an irish problem to be solved by reasonable-minded people on the island. But, not many of them have ever got into politics.

When Lloyd-George signed off on the treaty, he said to the papers the next day that Ireland was free. By which he meant, each part had as much freedom as it wanted or deserved. Each had self-government. Loads of boxes of difficult files could now be shifted out of his office and down the corridor.

L-G could turn around to the american ambassador and say that in 1917-18 he had promised to free Ireland, and eventually it had happened.
 


New Threads

Most Replies

Top