2000 extra Gardai - Big mistake

bonovox

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It was the highlight of the debate for me. Enda trying to include the 800 that Bertie already has in training in Templemore, to add to his 1000 to come up with 2000. Classic, classic, classic.
 


Rocky

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FG are saying they will deliver 2,000 more trained Gradaí then there are now. FF are saying the will deliver more then 2,000, I'm not sure of the exact figure. So yes FF are offering more Gardaí then FG.

However in 2002 FF promised 2,000 more Gardai in the next five years and they failed to deliver on that promise so why should we believe them now? They also promised an end to waiting lists in two years, a metro by 2007, and all classes to be reduced to 1 teacher per 20 students among other things and they didn’t deliver on any of this. So clearly the FF manifesto isn’t worth the paper that it is printed on.
 

Dunny

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Fine Gael for government said:
People who are trainees cannot be counted as Gardai.

There are not 14,000 Gardai.

FF are manipulating the figures.
Explain how we are manipulating the figures. We are being honest.

FG are attmepting to have 15,200 Gardai on the streets..we want 16000 its as simple as that
 

FutureTaoiseach

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anakin said:
Dunny said:
Fine Gael for government said:
Jesus man, calm down. Naughten was not dreadful and it's FF who are massaging the figures not FG.
We are not massaging figures. We have admitted that we will have 14,000 gardai at the end of this year. We have said that we will increase Gardai numbers by 2000 to 16,000.
"at the end of this year" doesn't cut it. 14,000 Gardai promised 5 years ago should have been delivered by the date of the election if Fianna Fail was to keep its promise, it clearly hasn't.
If you include those due to graduate from Templemore it is 14,000.
 

pfkf

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Dunny said:
Fine Gael for government said:
People who are trainees cannot be counted as Gardai.

There are not 14,000 Gardai.

FF are manipulating the figures.
Explain how we are manipulating the figures. We are being honest.

FG are attmepting to have 15,200 Gardai on the streets..we want 16000 its as simple as that
no you want 2,000 extra gardai, the simple matter of the fact is that there are 13,178 gardai on the street, FG are promising 2,000 extra gardai on the street, so it is quite clear that FF can't add because 13,178 plus 2,000 does not add up to 16,000.

As for the arguement about gardai in training, first they are not on the streets, and second it does not matter whether they will be ready in 1 month or 7 months time, governments in this country run for a period of 5 years, not for 5 years and 7 months, therefore it is only right that people judge this government on 5 years and it is quite clear that FF/PDs have failed to deliver on their promise of an extra 2,000 gardai in 2002 they have provided less than 1,200, a failure.
 

Iarmhi Gael

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KingKane said:
Iarmhi Gael said:
[quote="Fine Gael for government":3itapmzh]Jesus man, calm down. Naughten was not dreadful and it's FF who are massaging the figures not FG.
Calm Down - I have been out for nearly 2 years canvassing for this election and with 7 days to go FF have finally started to run this campaign or at least be heard.

Already this morning out of businesses I have been in nearly 70% brought up the issue of garda numbers looking themselves to be there own Miriam O'Callaghan, Pat Kenny or Vincent Browne.
You've been canvassing for the last 2 years for whom, might I ask? And in what jurisdiction were these business?

You're wearing an FG avatar but appear to talking up FF, do you even know the difference between the parties?[/quote:3itapmzh]

I am canvassing for them in Westmeath and if you read my other 106 posts you would see how passionate I am about the party.
 

noodles

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Hi all, Does anyone know the number of gardai that were in training, scheduled to graduate in the next 12 months when FF made their promise of 2000 extra in 2002??
Correct me if I am wrong but if there was a few hundred in training then does that not make the 1300 odd they have delivered to date of this election become an even smaller number?
 

Brolly

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pfkf said:
Dunny said:
Fine Gael for government said:
People who are trainees cannot be counted as Gardai.

There are not 14,000 Gardai.

FF are manipulating the figures.
Explain how we are manipulating the figures. We are being honest.

FG are attmepting to have 15,200 Gardai on the streets..we want 16000 its as simple as that
no you want 2,000 extra gardai, the simple matter of the fact is that there are 13,178 gardai on the street, FG are promising 2,000 extra gardai on the street, so it is quite clear that FF can't add because 13,178 plus 2,000 does not add up to 16,000. a failure.
I think that you have got a little lost here - Fianna Fáil are promising 2,000 over and above the 14,000 (including those training) = 16,000
 

johnfás

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Its quite obvious that people who are not finished their Garda training cannot be considered Gardaí yet.

Furthermore, Fiann Fail promised that these Gardaí would be qualified by the end of their tenure of government (now). They have now made it clear that this will not be the case. Whilst they claim they will have 16,000 Gardaí rather than Fine Gael's 15,200 how do we know that they will be qualified by the end of their next potential period of government. The Fine Gael figure is clearly far more achievable seeing as Fianna Fail have not achieved their promised level of Gardaí within their timeframe.

The same argument exists in regard to the health service. It is simply not good enough when asked where the 3,000 promised beds are to answer "we're on our way there". The promise was not to "be on our way there" at this point, it was to be there.

This is why people have lost confidence in Fianna Fail to deliver, this is why people are going to vote for the contract, so they can get someone's head if it isn't delivered.
 

pfkf

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Brolly said:
pfkf said:
Dunny said:
Fine Gael for government said:
People who are trainees cannot be counted as Gardai.

There are not 14,000 Gardai.

FF are manipulating the figures.
Explain how we are manipulating the figures. We are being honest.

FG are attmepting to have 15,200 Gardai on the streets..we want 16000 its as simple as that
no you want 2,000 extra gardai, the simple matter of the fact is that there are 13,178 gardai on the street, FG are promising 2,000 extra gardai on the street, so it is quite clear that FF can't add because 13,178 plus 2,000 does not add up to 16,000. a failure.
I think that you have got a little lost here - Fianna Fáil are promising 2,000 over and above the 14,000 (including those training) = 16,000
14,000(including those in traning, DOESN'T CUT IT) there are currently 13,178 at the end of your government. You promised 14,000 gardai by the end of this Dail, you failed to deliver and you are now trying to manipulate the figures, FG will deliver 2,000 extra Gardai on the streets in 5 years, not 5 years and 7 months.
 

noodles

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Hi again, I am still focused on the number of trainee guards in 2002.

Scenario 1 We accept FF point about gardai in training and credit them for 14000 gardai achieved. BUT by that calculation any guards in training post 2002 election but started before the election must be credited to the previous govt figures. This obviously means they failed to meet the target.

Scenario 2 Accept all gardai on the books since 2002 and trainees in training today. This calculation requires two different sets of rules. In effect FF will be guilty of "talking out of both sides of their mouth"

Can any one clarify this for me??

EDIT: just checked garda website. It takes 58 weeks to train a guard and then two years probation.
 

cyberianpan

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FutureTaoiseach said:
anakin said:
Dunny said:
Fine Gael for government said:
Jesus man, calm down. Naughten was not dreadful and it's FF who are massaging the figures not FG.
We are not massaging figures. We have admitted that we will have 14,000 gardai at the end of this year. We have said that we will increase Gardai numbers by 2000 to 16,000.
"at the end of this year" doesn't cut it. 14,000 Gardai promised 5 years ago should have been delivered by the date of the election if Fianna Fail was to keep its promise, it clearly hasn't.
If you include those due to graduate from Templemore it is 14,000.
Still brain damaged as ever FT ? Retirements (reckon there'll be ~700 of them this year) ?

cYp
 

noodles

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The issue isn't 16000 vs 15200 Anyone can promise to spend money, hell Pds could promise 20000 gardai and it wouldn't matter.

The issue centers on accountability and FF/PD did NOT meet the 2002 target no matter which way they wish to count it. In that light it is irrelevant what the promise. They have no word as we would say in the country
 

justified

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noodles said:
Anyone can promise to spend money
Yes of course they can and enda/pat are promising like f..k
everything and anything but they aint saying how thay are going to pay for it all
 

noodles

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I agree, both sides are promising too much. But not meeting 2002 promises is relevant because it affects the believeability of 2007 promises and I tak 16000 with a pinch of salt
 

FutureTaoiseach

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The contract is exposed for the pig-in-the-poke that it is. A false prospectus. There are so many financial holes in this document as to put ENRON to shame. :p
 

pfkf1

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FutureTaoiseach said:
The contract is exposed for the pig-in-the-poke that it is. A false prospectus. There are so many financial holes in this document as to put ENRON to shame. :p
It's funny how you, a supporter of the PD's, are giving out about costed proposals that have stood up to the scrutiny of economic experts over the last 3 weeks, considering in the last 10 years it is estimated that your government has wasted 17 billion euros.
 

fiannafuddy

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noodles said:
I agree, both sides are promising too much. But not meeting 2002 promises is relevant because it affects the believeability of 2007 promises and I tak 16000 with a pinch of salt
Aha...you see this is where you're wrong...This country won't reach optimum Garda levels for years regardless of government...we're just making it fewer years....The force should total somewhere in the region of 0.05% of population or 21000 based on current population. This is not going to happen over the lifetime of any one government and will require about 20 years of continuously churning graduates out of Templemore at max capacity to meet retirement numbers too.


And remember you can't say Trainee Garda without saying Garda.

On top of that Fianna Fáil may even (budgetary conditions allowing) go above 16000 before 2012 as the Fianna Fáil/PD Government has practically reconstructed Templemore so that it is now possible to put over 200 new Gardaí every 60 days.

The current government has also begun the civilianisation plan of Garda administration putting more Gardaí on the roads, streets and in the communities where they are needed.
 

noodles

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fiannafuddy said:
noodles said:
I agree, both sides are promising too much. But not meeting 2002 promises is relevant because it affects the believeability of 2007 promises and I tak 16000 with a pinch of salt
Aha...you see this is where you're wrong...This country won't reach optimum Garda levels for years regardless of government...we're just making it fewer years....The force should total somewhere in the region of 0.05% of population or 21000 based on current population. This is not going to happen over the lifetime of any one government and will require about 20 years of continuously churning graduates out of Templemore at max capacity to meet retirement numbers too.


And remember you can't say Trainee Garda without saying Garda.

On top of that Fianna Fáil may even (budgetary conditions allowing) go above 16000 before 2012 as the Fianna Fáil/PD Government has practically reconstructed Templemore so that it is now possible to put over 200 new Gardaí every 60 days.

The current government has also begun the civilianisation plan of Garda administration putting more Gardaí on the roads, streets and in the communities where they are needed.
This sounds suspiciously like a lot done more to do. You say your party are making the gardai increase in size in fewer years and I say you are promising to do it but your record in the last five years says you have failed to deliver previous targets on garda numbers. Judging FF/PD on previous results and during perhaps the greatest positive economic conditions in the history of the state I would say your record on delivery of Gardai has been one of failure.

It has to be recognised that capacity has increased in Templemore and Civilianisation will also pay dividends in years to come. there are good foundations laid but more to do. It is not good enough after 10 years (in govt since 1997) to be talking about 2012 as a target. Historical underfunding aside.

Your point about not being able to say Trainee Garda without garda was correct but from the foundation level debating manual
 

patslatt

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cyberianpan said:



The hard task for them would be to reform the cops & get more efficiencies, reduce crime by tackling its causes.

Instead they are pulling more money from the magical money tree, money we notice less as our wealth has increased



If they don't target value for money, we'll go the way of France:

cYp
In Britain,about 35 to 40% of police administration jobs are civilianised. Not so in Ireland,where the figure is a miserable 10% or so according to an RTE Radio interview. Garda only HR and IT managers are typical! This indicates a radical reorganisation of the force is long overdue.

When the government recruits an extra 4,000 guards,how long will it be before most of them are siphoned off to become admin staff? And what is the extra cost compared to civilians of garda only admin staff, with high salaries and generous pensions meant to compensate for dangerous street level policing,not filling out forms?
 


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