8th Amendment and homelessness crisis

MichaelR

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Jun 1, 2006
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These two issues seem to be discussed entirely separately, and what's more worrying, those who want to keep the 8th (or at least expand access to abortion in a minimal way) seem least worried about the homelessness crisis.

In my opinion, the 8th works as a part of an implicit social contract that bans abortion but provides a certain minimal level of welfare to the mother and child. Yes, minimal for Ireland, but significantly higher than what one could rely on in places like Russia - even if it's a damp social house in a gang-ridden estate, it is a house, and an allowance sufficient to get some food etc. It is not great, but not pauperism. I have, in fact, successfully defended the Irish arrangement in debates with Russian pro-choicers just a couple years ago.

But the defence falls flat now!

If this social contract were to stand there might be a good case to relax the 8th just a little bit - permit abortion for serious danger to mother's health, rape, incest and, sadly, serious fetal abnormalities. The country's dire state of medicine sadly does not permit exclusion of the latter.

The homelessness crisis crushes this social contract. While the unborn is quite definitely human, it is not fair to force the mother to carry the child to term if the mother and child are not to be provided with a stable roof over their heads after the birth. Especially since in recent times they were.

The economy is doing well enough, so FFS fix the matter! In my view those who want to keep all or most of the restrictions should be clamoring for this fix even if it is a bit more confiscatory than capitalist senses normally allow.

(*Personally* I would prefer to keep most of the restrictions - with expanded access as outlined above, for health/rape/incest/serious fetal illness. Perhaps on demand to 8 weeks only - enough time for reasonable notice - but definitely not the British regime, and any such dating should be in the Constitution and not open to legal wrangling... And also to resolve the homelessness crisis by throwing a huge tax - a tax equal to, say, half the HAP payment in the county per month - on houses that are unoccupied,. This tax is to be levied only in cases where the council could provide a HAP tenant or, at the option of the owner, the Lease and Repair scheme, which in itself already exists. So if the council is not able to use the house, like if it's a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere waiting for the owner's child to return, the tax does not apply).
 


talkingshop

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Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
26,677
These two issues seem to be discussed entirely separately, and what's more worrying, those who want to keep the 8th (or at least expand access to abortion in a minimal way) seem least worried about the homelessness crisis.

In my opinion, the 8th works as a part of an implicit social contract that bans abortion but provides a certain minimal level of welfare to the mother and child. Yes, minimal for Ireland, but significantly higher than what one could rely on in places like Russia - even if it's a damp social house in a gang-ridden estate, it is a house, and an allowance sufficient to get some food etc. It is not great, but not pauperism. I have, in fact, successfully defended the Irish arrangement in debates with Russian pro-choicers just a couple years ago.

But the defence falls flat now!

If this social contract were to stand there might be a good case to relax the 8th just a little bit - permit abortion for serious danger to mother's health, rape, incest and, sadly, serious fetal abnormalities. The country's dire state of medicine sadly does not permit exclusion of the latter.

The homelessness crisis crushes this social contract. While the unborn is quite definitely human, it is not fair to force the mother to carry the child to term if the mother and child are not to be provided with a stable roof over their heads after the birth. Especially since in recent times they were.

The economy is doing well enough, so FFS fix the matter! In my view those who want to keep all or most of the restrictions should be clamoring for this fix even if it is a bit more confiscatory than capitalist senses normally allow.

(*Personally* I would prefer to keep most of the restrictions - with expanded access as outlined above, for health/rape/incest/serious fetal illness. Perhaps on demand to 8 weeks only - enough time for reasonable notice - but definitely not the British regime, and any such dating should be in the Constitution and not open to legal wrangling... And also to resolve the homelessness crisis by throwing a huge tax - a tax equal to, say, half the HAP payment in the county per month - on houses that are unoccupied,. This tax is to be levied only in cases where the council could provide a HAP tenant or, at the option of the owner, the Lease and Repair scheme, which in itself already exists. So if the council is not able to use the house, like if it's a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere waiting for the owner's child to return, the tax does not apply).
(a) I don't accept that Ireland has a "dire state of medicine", and

(b) the number of pregnancies arising from rape, incest, or affected by FFA are tiny in the greater scheme of things.

Neither of the above have anything to do with my views on whether we should have more liberal abortion btw, I just don't think the issue is connected to the housing problem really.
 
D

Deleted member 48908

Bit of a reach, trying to connect abortion and homelessness.
 

Sync

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Aug 27, 2009
Messages
28,913
Bit of a reach, trying to connect abortion and homelessness.
Uses a lot of words while failing to make the connection though. Points for that.
 

mulligan

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Joined
Jan 30, 2011
Messages
1,314
These two issues seem to be discussed entirely separately, and what's more worrying, those who want to keep the 8th (or at least expand access to abortion in a minimal way) seem least worried about the homelessness crisis.
Nonsense. Many of the Catholic and religious groups are the strongest supporters of the homeless. It's totally false to suggest otherwise, and quite frankly it's irrelevant in the abortion debate.
 

gleeful

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Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
7,520
These two issues seem to be discussed entirely separately, and what's more worrying, those who want to keep the 8th (or at least expand access to abortion in a minimal way) seem least worried about the homelessness crisis.

In my opinion, the 8th works as a part of an implicit social contract that bans abortion but provides a certain minimal level of welfare to the mother and child. Yes, minimal for Ireland, but significantly higher than what one could rely on in places like Russia - even if it's a damp social house in a gang-ridden estate, it is a house, and an allowance sufficient to get some food etc. It is not great, but not pauperism. I have, in fact, successfully defended the Irish arrangement in debates with Russian pro-choicers just a couple years ago.

But the defence falls flat now!

If this social contract were to stand there might be a good case to relax the 8th just a little bit - permit abortion for serious danger to mother's health, rape, incest and, sadly, serious fetal abnormalities. The country's dire state of medicine sadly does not permit exclusion of the latter.

The homelessness crisis crushes this social contract. While the unborn is quite definitely human, it is not fair to force the mother to carry the child to term if the mother and child are not to be provided with a stable roof over their heads after the birth. Especially since in recent times they were.

The economy is doing well enough, so FFS fix the matter! In my view those who want to keep all or most of the restrictions should be clamoring for this fix even if it is a bit more confiscatory than capitalist senses normally allow.

(*Personally* I would prefer to keep most of the restrictions - with expanded access as outlined above, for health/rape/incest/serious fetal illness. Perhaps on demand to 8 weeks only - enough time for reasonable notice - but definitely not the British regime, and any such dating should be in the Constitution and not open to legal wrangling... And also to resolve the homelessness crisis by throwing a huge tax - a tax equal to, say, half the HAP payment in the county per month - on houses that are unoccupied,. This tax is to be levied only in cases where the council could provide a HAP tenant or, at the option of the owner, the Lease and Repair scheme, which in itself already exists. So if the council is not able to use the house, like if it's a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere waiting for the owner's child to return, the tax does not apply).
Do countries with abortion have lower numbers of homeless people?

Quick google search shows:

"About 1.56 million people, or about 0.5% of the U.S. population, used an emergency shelter or a transitional housing program between October 1, 2008 and September 30, 2009. Around 44% of homeless people were employed."

If Ireland had that level of homelessness, there would be 23,500 people homeless, not 8000. Our serious homeless problem is 3 times less than the US problem. So no correlation with abortion availability at all.
 

The_SR

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Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Messages
18,040
Uses a lot of words while failing to make the connection though. Points for that.
I kinda see his point. We force women who think they can't support a kid to have the kid and then fail to support them when they have it. Not brilliantly articulated
 

gleeful

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The one that Michael R, as a foreigner, naively imagines the Irish have with the women they have traditionally abused and locked up for being sexually active without official permission.
MichaelR has lived here for long enough to be Irish.
 

petaljam

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Nov 23, 2012
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30,689
MichaelR has lived here for long enough to be Irish.
He describes himself that way, and it's not pejorative (I'm in the same situation myself, though not in Ireland obv) it's simply that it's relevant to the discussion here. I know exactly where he coming from - one tends to "read" certain aspects of one's current home with the understanding and analysis developed by the history and sociology of the place you grew up in.

It can lead to mistakes, though IME if used properly it can often give a clearer picture than to people who've never questioned things because it's all they know.

But you also have to realize that sometimes there are other factors that you just don't "get".
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Mar 16, 2010
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They are hugely different and separate problems.

FG can make their cronies billions from homelessness....they haven't YET figured out a way to make profit for anyone from the 8th amendment.
 

Morgellons

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Mar 24, 2012
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4,911
Uses a lot of words while failing to make the connection though. Points for that.
Nice shape to the paragraphs too, so more points for that.
 


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