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A European Superstate: Would it be such a bad thing?

Concerned Irishman

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Feb 27, 2009
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There's a hue and cry around here and from different corners, especially given the current EU referendum in the UK, about the encroaching fear of some sort of United States of Europe taking hold. Am I missing something when I feel that such a project - unprecedented in the modern age - could actually be a positive thing, with European power as a force for good in the world? What would be wrong with having the economic, social and security backup that such as a megastate could provide for its citizens? It could be a true, multi-lingual, multi-ethnic state built on the priniciples of shared democratic values, mutual respect and an equitable distribution of prosperity.

The EU isn't without problems, and nobody is arguing that there isn't a democratic deficit in its institutions (although I would argue this could be reformed rather simply abandoned), but surely the prospect, down the line, of some sort of a formalized federal solution would hardly be the Armageddon the europhobes predict? There is nothing to suggest that we would cease to be Irish under this federation, just as a Californian remains a Californian under the auspices of the United States.

What do ye think?
 


ruserious

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Jan 3, 2011
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No. I don't feel connected to other Europeans in a way that I want to share a State with.
 

Concerned Irishman

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No. I don't feel connected to other Europeans in a way that I want to share a State with.
The same could be said of people from Kerry and people from Dublin - yet it still makes sense for them to be connected by State institutions. Why is an innate "connection" necessary?

Also is it not something that could be built up over generations? Remember, there was once a time that there was no Ireland as we now know it, but a collection of warring fiefdoms on the same Island. Shared identities have to start somewhere.
 

Eire1976

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The EU is all about big business interests.

The EU forces national governments to sell off what were semi state companies to the private sector, all in the interest of enriching the already rich.

Prices usually go up as private interests want bigger profits.

The EU stands over the subbing out of all manufacturing to China and this robs the youth of Europe of jobs that suit the lower 20/30%.

The whole culture of the EU is just to have people living on benefits.
 

silverharp

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The same could be said of people from Kerry and people from Dublin - yet it still makes sense for them to be connected by State institutions. Why is an innate "connection" necessary?

Also is it not something that could be built up over generations? Remember, there was once a time that there was no Ireland as we now know it, but a collection of warring fiefdoms on the same Island. Shared identities have to start somewhere.
if Europe was full of Europeans it would help, what is happening in Germany and Sweden where they are trying to destroy their culture makes me more wary. I dont have a nationalist bone in my body but I like identifying with being European. it seems more likely that the trend is for states breaking up rather than combining into bigger units. at the end of the day societies cant prosper if everyone thinks someone else is doing the heavy lifting so the bigger the unit the more the moral hazard.
 

Crazy horse 6

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No. Other European nations have their cultures as do we. I don't want to see this continued dumbing down of our heritage and way of life just so limp wristed lefties like Sir Bob can feel all smug and warm in their gated mansions. No to the EU.
 

purpledon

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Yet, since the Euro was introduced, most of us are far poorer. Democracy went out the window when German, British and French banks were faced with losing billions of euros. Yet, the ECB felt that it was very fair for 4.8 million Irish people or 1% of the EU's population should carry 41% the cost of the banking bailouts. Socializing private debt will be the undoing of the EU and it's not finished yet. Are we to bailout Italy as well?

To pay for the bailout we have been forced to sell off state assets to private companies. Assets that our grandparents and parents paid for and were set up by our fledging state for the benefit of our people. Set up at a time when our people and state hadn't a pot to piss in, yet they build up our utilities and infrastructure only for the EU to force us to sell them off. This is the great shame of Ireland and the EU.

Yet, the state retains ownership of the power plants, pipelines etc. When they need repairing, the taxpapers will replace/repair them and the private companies will reap the benefit.

Selling off state assets to private companies is how most oligarchs get their money. He who can't be mentioned and Ambromovich are just two such people.

For the life of me, or maybe I'm stupid, I don't get the selling of Eircom, ESB and Bord Gais to private operators. These are vital to our country. If Eircom hadn't been sold off 16 years ago, broadband would be a reality for all. Instead the taxpayer has to shell our half a billion to provide this service for all the people. Or the selling off of collecting the rubbish. There's money to be made by the Councils should they ever take it back. From recycling to compost making. Lots of money to be made there if only they and our successive governments had the wit.

Some countries do not have enough people for private companies to operate without forming cartels in self-interest. What works for Germany, France and the UK doesn't necessarily work for the small countries with small populations.

Why is that so difficult to understand.
 

The Field Marshal

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with European power as a force for good in the world?
Not possible as long as Germany and Greece remain members.

What would be wrong with having the economic, social and security backup that such as a megastate could provide for its citizens? It could be a true, multi-lingual, multi-ethnic state built on the priniciples of shared democratic values, mutual respect and an equitable distribution of prosperity.
Sounds like the Communist Manifesto:roll:

The EU isn't without problems, and nobody is arguing that there isn't a democratic deficit in its institutions (although I would argue this could be reformed rather simply abandoned), but surely the prospect, down the line, of some sort of a formalized federal solution would hardly be the Armageddon the europhobes predict? There is nothing to suggest that we would cease to be Irish under this federation, just as a Californian remains a Californian under the auspices of the United States.
Of course you are right we would not cease to be Irish.

But then we did not cease to be Irish when the country was colonized and exploited and ruled by British people whose interests were not those of the Irish people.

Be very very clear that the scenario you advocate fills every Irish person with horror.

Since it seems also clear that you and your family are prepared to die defending some Polish or other continental border due to some entirely avoidable spat with Russia or whoever I can only conclude you are not one bit Irish and would politely ask you to get out of my country.

---
 

blokesbloke

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Congratulations to the OP for the first non-womyn-related thread I've seen from him. :p

I don't think a United States of Europe could ever work. The continent is simply too diverse with too many languages and too many radical differences in their fundamental approach to government and life in general.

Look at all the squabbles there are now - many of the nations which make up the EU have been around for a very long time and they're not going to give up their national identities entirely.

Every time there is a squabble between EU countries the EU elite always claim the answer is yet more EU - but it's never worked yet.

The single currency was supposed to help, and it did make at least the core eurozone countries feel a bit more like one country with a shared currency and central bank, but it only heightened division, precisely because the different countries had such different economies, so a "one-size-fits-all" currency didn't work.

Ultimately the EU want to "solve" these divisions by breaking down the nation-states, but I just don't think it can ever work. The national identities are too different and too deep.

The USA has a common language and culture. Obviously there are cultural differences between the states, but they are relatively minor in comparison to Europe.

Even the biggest extreme I can think of, such as a person from the backwoods of Alabama to a rich sophisticate in New York City would understand each other better than, say, a Greek or a Finn or a Slovakian or a Portuguese.

Ultimately the way the EU is developing is more akin to an empire - look at the constant disregarding of referendums even in the core countries like France and the Netherlands when people make it clear things are moving towards integration too far and too fast - the peasants are simply ignored and they carry on regardless.

Empires always break up in the end...
 

Eire1976

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Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
14,195
Yet, since the Euro was introduced, most of us are far poorer. Democracy went out the window when German, British and French banks were faced with losing billions of euros. Yet, the ECB felt that it was very fair for 4.8 million Irish people or 1% of the EU's population should carry 41% the cost of the banking bailouts. Socializing private debt will be the undoing of the EU and it's not finished yet. Are we to bailout Italy as well?

To pay for the bailout we have been forced to sell off state assets to private companies. Assets that our grandparents and parents paid for and were set up by our fledging state for the benefit of our people. Set up at a time when our people and state hadn't a pot to piss in, yet they build up our utilities and infrastructure only for the EU to force us to sell them off. This is the great shame of Ireland and the EU.

Yet, the state retains ownership of the power plants, pipelines etc. When they need repairing, the taxpapers will replace/repair them and the private companies will reap the benefit.

Selling off state assets to private companies is how most oligarchs get their money. He who can't be mentioned and Ambromovich are just two such people.

For the life of me, or maybe I'm stupid, I don't get the selling of Eircom, ESB and Bord Gais to private operators. These are vital to our country. If Eircom hadn't been sold off 16 years ago, broadband would be a reality for all. Instead the taxpayer has to shell our half a billion to provide this service for all the people. Or the selling off of collecting the rubbish. There's money to be made by the Councils should they ever take it back. From recycling to compost making. Lots of money to be made there if only they and our successive governments had the wit.

Some countries do not have enough people for private companies to operate without forming cartels in self-interest. What works for Germany, France and the UK doesn't necessarily work for the small countries with small populations.

Why is that so difficult to understand.
The EU exists to further the interests of big business at the expense of the nation states.
 

blokesbloke

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Jan 13, 2011
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23,298
I don't feel connected to other Irish counties in a way that I want to share a State with. But I get over it.
You genuinely feel you have no more connection with someone from a different county in Ireland than you do to someone whose language you can't even speak thousands of miles away in a country you've never been to?

Really?

You're on an Irish website. Why?

Shouldn't you have a county-only web forum you could go on so you can feel a connection with your fellow county-people?
 

Concerned Irishman

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No. Other European nations have their cultures as do we. I don't want to see this continued dumbing down of our heritage and way of life just so limp wristed lefties like Sir Bob can feel all smug and warm in their gated mansions. No to the EU.
But since when, in the modern age, is the principle function of a State been the preservation of cultural eccentricities (as if these weren't subject to change over time anyway - especially in an interconnected world), rather than more important matter such as the administration of justice, the protection of the populace and the provision of public services and social security?
 

dammit_im_mad

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Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
9,118
The EU is all about big business interests.

The EU forces national governments to sell off what were semi state companies to the private sector, all in the interest of enriching the already rich.

Prices usually go up as private interests want bigger profits.

The EU stands over the subbing out of all manufacturing to China and this robs the youth of Europe of jobs that suit the lower 20/30%.

The whole culture of the EU is just to have people living on benefits.
Then they take away the benefits!! :p

Neoliberals don't like the poor getting any benefits. It requires taxes to do that. Taxes on THEM
 

The Field Marshal

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Aug 27, 2009
Messages
44,408
The same could be said of people from Kerry and people from Dublin - yet it still makes sense for them to be connected by State institutions. Why is an innate "connection" necessary?
Once again you reveal your lack of any knowledge concerning the state you purport to be a member of.
:roll:

Also is it not something that could be built up over generations? Remember, there was once a time that there was no Ireland as we now know it, but a collection of warring fiefdoms on the same Island. Shared identities have to start somewhere.
Your faux revisionism is stomach churning and indicative of the type of traitorous cant designed to destroy any real sense of Irish identity or Irish pride in their native land.
 

Concerned Irishman

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I can only conclude you are not one bit Irish and would politely ask you to get out of my country.

---
You probably would not see me as Irish - my parents are naturalized citizens from Vietnam and Finland, but I can assure you I was born here and am as Irish as you.
 

The Field Marshal

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But since when, in the modern age, is the principle function of a State been the preservation of cultural eccentricities (as if these weren't subject to change over time anyway - especially in an interconnected world), rather than more important matter such as the administration of justice, the protection of the populace and the provision of public services and social security?
It is clear you are not really Irish merely some state clone on here paid to push the Brussels agenda of destroying all real vestiges of national identity and self respect
 
Last edited:

blokesbloke

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Besides, if we're all supposed to feel more European than anything else now, why do we still have movements for independence in countries like Scotland, Catalonia, Basque Country etc?

The more a grand European identity is forced from the top down, the more nationalistic smaller nations get - that's the opposite to what was supposed to happen.
 

The Field Marshal

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You probably would not see me as Irish - my parents are naturalized citizens from Vietnam and Finland, but I can assure you I was born here and am as Irish as you.
You are therefore not ethnically Irish.

This is evident in your total abysmal ignorence of Irish history.

How dare you start preaching to native Irish people what is good for them.

Clear off.
 

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