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A failed state - What is wrong with Ireland

D

Duth Ealla

Over on Irishelection.com, a decent site with genuine contributors one of the regulars, Gavin Sheridan, has commented on the need to recognise that we are living in a failed state.

He describes himself as a center-right person. This is not more "inherent failures of capitalist societies" stuff. Its a thoughful review by a right winger of what criteria we need to meet to be classified as a failed state and its a depressing realisation that they are already met.

Whether you are a Fine Gael or SWP person, while you ideology may differ , there is indeed much common ground to be found on the idea that this state is now an abysmal failure and needs drastic changes.
Whenever and wherever corruption is discovered, nothing happens. Whenever and wherever whistles are blown, nothing happens. We live in a country where the very idea of accountability, or that our politicians are our servants, simply does not exist.

As a nation state, we are a failure. As a democracy, we have failed. As a country we are bankrupt, both morally and financially. We are the emerging market, banana republic of the European Union. Our political system is broken. It is beyond redemption.

Some will reply that I am a socialist, or other such attacks. I am actually right of centre economically, I just recognise what is standing in front of me for what it is.

An almost incalculable political and financial mess – generations are being saddled with the debts of the oligarchs, and the taxpayer is being lied to by its own government.
What is wrong with Ireland

 


Factorem

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Messages
568
We haven't failed just yet. Still plenty of people buying up Irish bonds for some reason.
 

Jock_the_Waster

Active member
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
165
Politics and the 'political' classes have failed

They are abject failures

A new cojent system would dispense of the 'political' system

we need effective executive decision makers, not pandering spineless buffoons
 

Digout

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
1,396
We haven't failed just yet. Still plenty of people buying up Irish bonds for some reason.
Thats the Paddy banks funded by us and the ECB. The bond market is another bubble, and will burst before the end of the year.
 

Digout

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
1,396
pandering spineless buffoons
FF , FG, Labour and SF are pandering spineless buffoons. All the same, all supporting the SCAMA plan to flush us down the toilet. Enda Kenny is just as guilty as ahern, Clowen and Gormless.
 
D

Duth Ealla

We haven't failed just yet. Still plenty of people buying up Irish bonds for some reason.
Some might say Factorem that just about being solvent enough to pay premium rates on bonds to foreign creditors in order to run the state is failure.

I would like to think the bar should be a bit higher than that.
 

Jock_the_Waster

Active member
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
165
FF , FG, Labour and SF are pandering spineless buffoons. All the same, all supporting the SCAMA plan to flush us down the toilet. Enda Kenny is just as guilty as ahern, Clowen and Gormless.
I agree, as I stated, the political system has failed the Nation.

All cogs, all components, it is time for change.
 

iartaoiseach

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,232
Politics and the 'political' classes have failed

They are abject failures

A new cojent system would dispense of the 'political' system

we need effective executive decision makers, not pandering spineless buffoons
ain't that the truth. Garret Fitzgerald said before that the self interest was a major problem with us as a people, he also said that there was a lack of a sense of civic responsiblity here which lead to tax avoidance and evasion, voting for politicians who are 'good local men' i.e stroke pullers and con men, filthy streets- no civic pride. at the same time we expect top class health services, transport and infrastructure but don't want to pay for any of them.
I constantly hear comparisons with the likes of sweden but there is no point in cherrypicking what we like about these advanced countries (free health care etc) while ignoring the fact that the citizens of same have almost zero tolerance for corrupt gombeens and usually pay their way through pretty high taxes (which the majority pay).
until such time as we come out of what Fitzgerald called our 'post colonial adolescence' which is a perfect description us imo, we will go nowhere. for 80 years we have acted exactly like teenagers with a free gaff. do what we like with no regard for long term consequences. time for us all to cop on and realise that unless we behave like a society it will never improve.
 

Ecoguy

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Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Messages
393
The entire Irish estaiblishment has totally failed and must be immediately removed due to its rotten and corrupt nature, otherwise this country will never achieve its full potential and future generations will be condemned to the living in the type of gombeen failed state we have now:(
 

iartaoiseach

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Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,232
The entire Irish estaiblishment has totally failed and must be immediately removed due to its rotten and corrupt nature, otherwise this country will never achieve its full potential and future generations will be condemned to the living in the type of gombeen failed state we have now:(
I agree but the voting public must also change its priorities.
 

bormotello

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Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
12,237
We haven't failed just yet. Still plenty of people buying up Irish bonds for some reason.
Some people were buying houses in 2007, when collapse of property market was inevitable
Just indicates that there are a lot of fools on this planet, nothing else
 

TradCat

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Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
1,992
When I tear myself away from P.ie and talk to people who are not particularly political I get no sense that people understand how bad things are and how much worse they are likely to get. I think people see all this as an aberration and the bubble years as reality which will come back.

Is that what others are finding? And if so what will it take for the penny to drop?
 

atlantic

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Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
649
The parish pump career vote buying politics is killing us, can ya get johnny or Mary a jobeen in the ps/cs .Our TDs are treated like all knowing,intelligent,personal(mammy) problem solvers .I have yet to meet one with an original idea.They fire money at problems,pussyfoot, but never solve them hence bankrupt country.
They are a Joke and where a Joke for putting those gimps and gimpesses on a pedestal ,they are our servants not the other way round,we now have the tail wagging the dog.
 
D

Duth Ealla

I agree but the voting public must also change its priorities.
That they must do and to an extent only a smaller party aiming at about 20% of the vote can do that.

FG cant be for changing voters priorities because they need to align with public views rather than lead them. Thats the reality of being the next de facto govt. It restricts them.

There is a niche there to be represented, a niche of giving leadership and voice to about 20-25% of the state's population that wants to live in a proper country.

Giving such leadership will probably piss off 20-30% but what about the 20% who really want serious change.

O
 

Fr. Fahey

Member
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
89
We are now paying the price for 90 years of living under a parasitic rentier elite that has the political establishment in its pocket.

The people we are expected to save through NAMA and the bank scheme are the same people, direct descendents in many cases, of those who categorically refused from day one in 1922 to invest productively in this country. Only thing they were interested in ever was land and foreign investments.

It was only after 30 years of attempting to arm twist, bribe or otherwise encourage this tiny elite to invest in Irish industry that Lemass turned to the multi nationals and that worked in terms of what it was meant to.

The downside of course is that while FDI was stimulating the REAL economy, creating jobs and wealth and spending power the old elite was ripping us all off through their control and manipulation of property while their satelittes ripped us off in the usual gombeen way of overcharging for stuff other people made.

Now the whole thing is gone belly up. FDI is drying up, multi nationals are leaving, and the old elite has made a pigs mickey of the thing. Weren't even competent enough to gamble at short odds on the finance and property markets and still, 90 years later, a huge proportion of their assets are over seas.

Time we did to them what we did to the old ascendency landlord class. Expropriate them but without being as generous as the Liberals who set up something not dissimlar to NAMA to buy off the landlords here.
 
G

Gimpanzee

Just posted something on a littering thread, but I think it is equally applicable here too.

The problem isn't ideology. We haven't got an ideology. It ain't what you do, its the way that you do it. The way we currently operate (and have done by-and-large for the past 80 years, barring a few breaks in the cloud - in the 20's, 60's and 90's) we would fail using every method of governance known to man. Actually worse, we wouldn't fail, we'ed stumble along convincing ourselves that we're just about to get it right.

The problem isn't the 'elite' or 'the establishment' - or rather they are just part of the problem. Every segment of society is dominated by the same lack of responsibility. As Iartaoiseach just said, the electorate are to blame for who we have in government. People are ill-informed when it comes to politics and politicians. And they are ill-informed because they aren't interested. They don't care. Careless.

Unless people are held directly accountable for their actions you cannot expect a state to be able to reach its potential. Our laws are often nothing more than suggestions. The problem isn't the system, the problem is with the Irish people.
 

atlantic

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Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
649
Its called head in sand syndrome,they deny the problem is that bad,when you tell them ear plugs are introduced ,things haven't hit home yet that what we are looking at is 10 plus years of frugal living,and Ireland as state is insolvent and bankrupt.
When I tear myself away from P.ie and talk to people who are not particularly political I get no sense that people understand how bad things are and how much worse they are likely to get. I think people see all this as an aberration and the bubble years as reality which will come back.

Is that what others are finding? And if so what will it take for the penny to drop?
 

iartaoiseach

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,232
When I tear myself away from P.ie and talk to people who are not particularly political I get no sense that people understand how bad things are and how much worse they are likely to get. I think people see all this as an aberration and the bubble years as reality which will come back.

Is that what others are finding? And if so what will it take for the penny to drop?
must say that is true. Most people don't care till it directly affects them. they don't see that what happens to your neighbour today could happen to them tomorrow. most of us are short sighted. for example how many people whinge about having to pay taxes for education but then when it comes to scarcity of resources for their own kids later on they are the loudest complainers. there is a complete lack of understanding of cause and effect and as a result no joined up thinking.
instead we have a knee jerk reactive way of doing things which inevitabley leads to **** ups at every level from government policy down to the way we behave as civilians(just look at how we elect our politicians and look at who we elect). until this stops and all of us look at the big picture not just our own little corner we will be discussing the same thing here in a few years time - if we aren't in the dark ages altogether.
 

Fr. Fahey

Member
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
89
Just posted something on a littering thread, but I think it is equally applicable here too.

The problem isn't ideology. We haven't got an ideology. It ain't what you do, its the way that you do it. The way we currently operate (and have done by-and-large for the past 80 years, barring a few breaks in the cloud - in the 20's, 60's and 90's) we would fail using every method of governance known to man. Actually worse, we wouldn't fail, we'ed stumble along convincing ourselves that we're just about to get it right.

The problem isn't the 'elite' or 'the establishment' - or rather they are just part of the problem. Every segment of society is dominated by the same lack of responsibility. As Iartaoiseach just said, the electorate are to blame for who we have in government. People are ill-informed when it comes to politics and politicians. And they are ill-informed because they aren't interested. They don't care. Careless.

Unless people are held directly accountable for their actions you cannot expect a state to be able to reach its potential. Our laws are often nothing more than suggestions. The problem isn't the system, the problem is with the Irish people.


I agree with some of what you say and certainly people need to be personally responsible right down to not littering their own communities and tolerating low level scams. Part of that neds to be a sort of moral rebirth, a renergising of the national psyche such as took place in the late 1800s and early 1900s and led to the national revolution except this time ensure that the elite - and it does exist - is destroyed for once and for all, politcally and economically of course not physically!
 

joel

Well-known member
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
810
Over on Irishelection.com, a decent site with genuine contributors one of the regulars, Gavin Sheridan, has commented on the need to recognise that we are living in a failed state.

He describes himself as a center-right person. This is not more "inherent failures of capitalist societies" stuff. Its a thoughful review by a right winger of what criteria we need to meet to be classified as a failed state and its a depressing realisation that they are already met.

Whether you are a Fine Gael or SWP person, while you ideology may differ , there is indeed much common ground to be found on the idea that this state is now an abysmal failure and needs drastic changes.

It was right of centre policies that failed - and failed utterly. Its the likes of him that should be blamed.
 

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