'A Lightning Rod': Anti-immigrant rhetoric, Ireland's Direct Provision system and Carrickmacross

Myler

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I think this is an issue on which we all want good information. At the same time, I find I wonder at what descriptions are telling us - and whether there's something they are hiding, rather than revealing. For instance, I can remember a story a while back about a gang of Travellers targeting rural older people that didn't identify them as such, but said they were from Tallaght. In other words, the editorial line didn't mind associating Tallaght with this kind of crime, but drew the line at that. (Tabloid papers, with their more direct language, had no problem reporting the full facts.)

This article in the Journal is lengthy, and I'm sure is seeking to be comprehensive. However, I found the following sentence raised more questions than it answered
Separately, and throughout the summer, there had been local commentary and disquiet about groups of men and women – mostly non-Irish, EU citizens in their 20s and 30s – gathering on Carrickmacross’s Main Street.
Is this article leaving anything out? Are there really gangs of EU Nationals - like, Poles or Latvians - hanging around in unsightly groups in Carrickmacross?

If I saw them would I say "there's a bunch of non-Irish EU citizens", or is there any other feature they possess?

Incidently, I don't know. I haven't been in Carrickmacross for years, maybe decades. But is there some aspect of internal EU migration that we need a fuller description of?

Full article is here:
 


Disillusioned democrat

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Ah here - I had a reasonable thread about the long term implications of migration sent off to the bottom of a thread already in the Zoo yesterday.

We're now paying carbon tax because of where climate change will get us in 2 decades, but ask what's the long term plan for migration and you get called a racist.

Uncontrolled migration - a wet dream for our media and political elite - will have consequences, economic and societal, but any discussion is labelled far right racism.

Ireland is a small country with a fragile economy that has a limited buffer between boom and bust, but we're building up a population that will quickly become unsustainable.

It's not racist to ask what the grand plan is, is it?
 

blinding

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If we must have Asylum Centres and Traveller halting sites then the Wealthy Areas are the Places for them .

Every-time you hear / see wealthy people on RTE they tell us how much they want Asylum Centres and Traveller Halting sites in their areas .

Obviously the place for Asylum Centres and Traveller halting sites is in Wealthy Areas . Its not Rocket Science .
 

Buchaill Dana

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If we must have Asylum Centres and Traveller halting sites then the Wealthy Areas are the Places for them .

Every-time you hear / see wealthy people on RTE they tell us how much they want Asylum Centres and Traveller Halting sites in their areas .

Obviously the place for Asylum Centres and Traveller halting sites is in Wealthy Areas . Its not Rocket Science .
They are out in the sticks because thats where the empty hotels are. If you can find a vacant site in a place people want to live,let us know.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Buchaill Dana

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Yet we need carbon taxes, have record levels of homeless people, a huge tax rate and 50% of all jobs will be automated by 2050...any population level we can't house, employ or live carbon neutrally is unsustainable
So stop them pesky furriners coming on and global warming will stop? Ok.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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So stop them pesky furriners coming on and global warming will stop? Ok.
Show me where I said that and I'll never post about migration again.

My point is that we're ignoring the long term implications of much of what we're doing, except of course climate change because you can tax that :rolleyes: .

Our economy is fragile at best - we're have a very lean margin between surplus and austerity. Jobs growth is set for a staggering slowdown on many sectors, particularly the low skilled.

SJWs like you see only the heuristic feel good factors associated with migration, but maybe if you tool a longer term view you would change you mind.
 

reg11

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Show me where I said that and I'll never post about migration again.

My point is that we're ignoring the long term implications of much of what we're doing, except of course climate change because you can tax that :rolleyes: .

Our economy is fragile at best - we're have a very lean margin between surplus and austerity. Jobs growth is set for a staggering slowdown on many sectors, particularly the low skilled.

SJWs like you see only the heuristic feel good factors associated with migration, but maybe if you tool a longer term view you would change you mind.
What would be the implications were we to say 'no' to the current migration that we're having? I know you're going to tell me that you're not saying 'no' to migration , but you know what I mean.

There are implications as you've stated but don't you think there would also be implications to saying 'no'? Which would be worse? Can we continue to benefit from globalisation as you and I have been doing for decades without us acknowledging that there was a cost, that the chickens eventually come home to roost? Isn't that what they're doing in DP centres?
 

Myler

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My point is that we're ignoring the long term implications of much of what we're doing, except of course climate change because you can tax that :rolleyes: .
And, for my own part, in this thread I'm really just asking about the provision of accurate information.

Maybe there are folk congregating in Carrickmacross. Maybe there are no folk congregating in Carrickmacross. Maybe its an unfamiliar practice of non-Irish EU citizens, which should cause us no alarm.

I just find it hard to account for that phrase "non-Irish EU citizens". How would a journalist verify that any group of people, no matter what they look like or sound like, are "non-Irish EU citizens"?

If we can't even state facts clearly, we can't have a good discussion. Bearing in mind that the story seems to be saying there was an attack on a woman, but it had nothing to do with asylum seekers accommodated in the area - and possibly had nothing to do with the "non-Irish EU citizens" congregating on the Main Street, why can't it be more candid?

Do "non-Irish EU citizens" typically congregate on town main streets? There's plenty of "non-Irish EU citizens" around, but I haven't seen anyone I'd describe as "groups of men and women – mostly non-Irish, EU citizens in their 20s and 30s" gathering over the summer in towns around Ireland.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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What would be the implications were we to say 'no' to the current migration that we're having? I know you're going to tell me that you're not saying 'no' to migration , but you know what I mean.

There are implications as you've stated but don't you think there would also be implications to saying 'no'? Which would be worse? Can we continue to benefit from globalisation as you and I have been doing for decades without us acknowledging that there was a cost, that the chickens eventually come home to roost? Isn't that what they're doing in DP centres?
You don't need to say "no", but you do need to have rules that work.

Bizarrely highly skilled professionals who come here legally with their spouses, but without a work visa, can't work, but asylum seekers on their 5th appeal living in a DPC are now legally entitled to work???

We should be far more organized in terms of what we want to do based on a long term goal.

There's also the benefit to migrants who ultimately return home with skills - our Celtic Tiger was by and large created by returning migrants with great experience and good connections having created a great reputation for Ireland abroad.
 

yosef shompeter

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Ah here - I had a reasonable thread about the long term implications of migration sent off to the bottom of a thread already in the Zoo yesterday.

We're now paying carbon tax because of where climate change will get us in 2 decades, but ask what's the long term plan for migration and you get called a racist.

Uncontrolled migration - a wet dream for our media and political elite - will have consequences, economic and societal, but any discussion is labelled far right racism.

Ireland is a small country with a fragile economy that has a limited buffer between boom and bust, but we're building up a population that will quickly become unsustainable.

It's not racist to ask what the grand plan is, is it?
I've just spent the better part of an hour searching and sifting through this site looking for the above-mentioned thread. Funny. I couldn't find it even in the Zoo.
I find it a great pity that some obscure person at server level decided (on a whim) to ban it. Sympathy also towards your worthy self as it takes quite some energy, thought and attention (-- call that work! ) to set up the thread, do the research and gather your thoughts together and put it all down on screen. No doubt you didn't get any reason or justification or explanation just as in the case of my "African sleeping rough" thread which was taken from Joe Duffy's show on RTE and he was able to broadcast live to the nation. Not so on Pie :( I don't even know which of them zoo'ed it.

I wanted to look at the economic aspect of migration. In particular I wanted to discuss data on welfare spending in comparison to tax-intake. Costs of prisoner upkeep compared to cost of dole and in particular I wanted to examine whether the new arrivals would ever in the future be likely to be a burden on the state or whether they would assist with the coming pension time-bomb.
Of course I could migrate to one of the other sites like the political Irish one. But that is so full of up-front anti coloured-people invecitive that it's not really suited for an academic discussion.
When this site went pitch black earlier in the year and then some IT worker left the data of all the users exposed to hacking for three days.... I wonder was this "by accident" or by design. It would have been very easy for someone in Kildare st to have bought the site and do what he liked with it.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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I've just spent the better part of an hour searching and sifting through this site looking for the above-mentioned thread. Funny. I couldn't find it even in the Zoo.
I find it a great pity that some obscure person at server level decided (on a whim) to ban it. Sympathy also towards your worthy self as it takes quite some energy, thought and attention (-- call that work! ) to set up the thread, do the research and gather your thoughts together and put it all down on screen. No doubt you didn't get any reason or justification or explanation just as in the case of my "African sleeping rough" thread which was taken from Joe Duffy's show on RTE and he was able to broadcast live to the nation. Not so on Pie :( I don't even know which of them zoo'ed it.

I wanted to look at the economic aspect of migration. In particular I wanted to discuss data on welfare spending in comparison to tax-intake. Costs of prisoner upkeep compared to cost of dole and in particular I wanted to examine whether the new arrivals would ever in the future be likely to be a burden on the state or whether they would assist with the coming pension time-bomb.
Of course I could migrate to one of the other sites like the political Irish one. But that is so full of up-front anti coloured-people invecitive that it's not really suited for an academic discussion.
When this site went pitch black earlier in the year and then some IT worker left the data of all the users exposed to hacking for three days.... I wonder was this "by accident" or by design. It would have been very easy for someone in Kildare st to have bought the site and do what he liked with it.

This is where it ended up
 

reg11

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You don't need to say "no", but you do need to have rules that work.

Bizarrely highly skilled professionals who come here legally with their spouses, but without a work visa, can't work, but asylum seekers on their 5th appeal living in a DPC are now legally entitled to work???

We should be far more organized in terms of what we want to do based on a long term goal.

There's also the benefit to migrants who ultimately return home with skills - our Celtic Tiger was by and large created by returning migrants with great experience and good connections having created a great reputation for Ireland abroad.
I don't know how you're going to manage that without saying 'No' to certain migrants and yes to the bizarrely highly skilled professionals ,whatever they are. If there are highly skilled professionals who aren't getting work visas it's because they're encroaching on the cohort of Irish people in that profession who've inbuilt safeguards against outsiders. Simple.

Regardless you're unlikely to find them in the standard DP centre, the type of people you're now dodging to address whilst you denounce others in officialdom for doing just that. Maybe if I ask again , are there implications for us in saying 'no' to these people , apart from the implications in saying yes that you've stated?

I don't think it's much a matter of 'what we want ' to do, as what we can do.
 

Catahualpa

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Dame_Enda

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If you are in overcrowded public hospital ward you might feel differently. The upper classes are not as affected because of their gold plated health insurance plans. My mother's appointment for cataracts has been repeatedly postponed and now cancelled. Population pressures have consequences.

The growing patriotic movement against open borders has been a consequence in part of real-life impacts on Irish people of it such as what I have described.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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If you are in overcrowded public hospital ward you might feel differently. The upper classes are not as affected because of their gold plated health insurance plans. My mother's appointment for cataracts has been repeatedly postponed and now cancelled. Population pressures have consequences.

The growing patriotic movement against open borders has been a consequence in part of real-life impacts on Irish people of it such as what I have described.
Population growth is killing the planet - everyone has a carbon footprint - but bizarrely our government, like most governments, are planning for significant population growth. Why? Because no one knows what to do when growth stops - capitalism, or crony capitalism in our case, needs growth, the belief that tomorrow will be better and bigger than today so it's worth investing.

We're at an interesting (terrifying) inflection point in societal development when growth may actually mean mass destruction, but our politicians and the organ grinders are all locked in an echo chamber that believes we can tax our way out of it.
 

cobhguy

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If you are in overcrowded public hospital ward you might feel differently. The upper classes are not as affected because of their gold plated health insurance plans. My mother's appointment for cataracts has been repeatedly postponed and now cancelled. Population pressures have consequences.

The growing patriotic movement against open borders has been a consequence in part of real-life impacts on Irish people of it such as what I have described.
Is the hospital overcrowded because of migrants or is it because of an aging Irish population and bad management. A lot of hospital doctors are immigrants.

Also because of immigration you have large MNC,s here which account for a large tax take, plus large employment, which is paying for these hospitals.

So I would be just as justified to say that because of immigration hospitals are in a better off position now.
 


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