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A little bit of balance to the FF-bashing - the Carrickmines Re-zoning Fiasco


ONQ

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Don't think for a minute that re-zonings happened only in the early nineties.

Rebels pass D18 shops rezone plan - National News, Frontpage - Herald.ie

By Maeve Galvin

Wednesday April 14 2010

COUNCILLORS have defied the Environment Minister in moving to rezone a shopping centre development in Carrickmines.

The move to extend the retail development at The Park, which is just off the M50, goes against the Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council's development plan, which was signed off on last Thursday.

Following a debate at last night's council meeting, councillors passed the motion to vary the development plan and provide for a district centre by 15 votes to 13.

This flies in the face of Environment Minister John Gormley's orders last month that directed the council not to rezone the Carrickmines land.

Several councillors spoke out against the move. Labour councillor Richard Humphreys, a barrister, told the chamber that the move "wasn't a lawful motion".

He said: "There is a legal obligation to comply with the minister's regulation.

"In addition this would undermine the Cherrywood development and negatively impact on this council's interests. I feel that it would be ludicrous and making a mockery of this council for us to pass this."

Fine Gael's Tom Joyce, Jim O'Leary, Barry Ward, John Bailey and Maria Bailey, and independent councillor Gearoid O'Keeffe put forward the motion, which aims to extend the retail land in Dublin 18 by 10,000sqm.

It also proposes to reduce the retail land at the Cherrywood development by the same amount.

Proposers of the motion said that they had been approached by developers who want to put in amenities such as a cinema, supermarket, leisure centre and restaurant, which would create 800 jobs.

Councillor Jim O'Leary said that the move was in the interest of creating jobs for the county.

Council management now plans to seek legal advice and report back to the council on the issue.

hnews@herald.ie

- Maeve Galvin
And who is John Baily?

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bailey_%28Irish_politician%29"]John Bailey (Irish politician) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 


alonso

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Eh you've mixed up corruption with bad planning.

I had a massive row oin here with an FG Councillor over this and he fcked off when he had more rezoning to do. I don;t know what this has to do with FF bashing and why you've posted a 5 month old article. The issue of Carrickmine retail park has been discussed. look it up and read my posts there
 

Mar Tweedy

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Eh you've mixed up corruption with bad planning.

I had a massive row oin here with an FG Councillor over this and he fcked off when he had more rezoning to do. I don;t know what this has to do with FF bashing and why you've posted a 5 month old article. The issue of Carrickmine retail park has been discussed. look it up and read my posts there
Thread is here http://www.politics.ie/environment/126599-gromley-launch-investigation-into-local-planning-issues-2.html

Very interesting. I'd call it a mega-mall too. One thing not mentioned on that thread is that here is a Dunnes up the road at ballyogan already - it's a little shopping centre with a Dunnes, and a few small shops (I think a hairdressers and a pharmacy).

Got the new luas out that way the other day. Once you are past the ballyogan road, residential development is minimal. There are the apartments that were sold recently at much reduced prices (think it was NAMA selling them) at Carrickmines.
It'd be as easy for them to get the luas to ballyogan than walk the long walk up the road to the Park. Don't know what the councillor was on about in terms of residents needing amenities. There aren't many residents beside the Park and the ballyogan folk have a supermarket/shopping centre.

Having a cinema in dun laoghaire, dundrum and stillorgan is closer to three cinemas than most people in the country live to one.

Oh btw that councillor resigned which would explain his absence: http://www.politics.ie/fine-gael/128320-dublin-south-fine-gael-cllr-jim-oleary-resigning.html
 

alonso

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Nonsence & lies

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I wonder how many shopping complexes were given the go ahead because they included a cinema or leisure centre/bowling alley. For the good of the community reasoning etc. Then placed in the 3rd or 4th phase of the project, and obviously never built.
 

Odyessus

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Thread is here http://www.politics.ie/environment/126599-gromley-launch-investigation-into-local-planning-issues-2.html

Very interesting. I'd call it a mega-mall too. One thing not mentioned on that thread is that here is a Dunnes up the road at ballyogan already - it's a little shopping centre with a Dunnes, and a few small shops (I think a hairdressers and a pharmacy).

Got the new luas out that way the other day. Once you are past the ballyogan road, residential development is minimal. There are the apartments that were sold recently at much reduced prices (think it was NAMA selling them) at Carrickmines.
It'd be as easy for them to get the luas to ballyogan than walk the long walk up the road to the Park. Don't know what the councillor was on about in terms of residents needing amenities. There aren't many residents beside the Park and the ballyogan folk have a supermarket/shopping centre.

Having a cinema in dun laoghaire, dundrum and stillorgan is closer to three cinemas than most people in the country live to one.

Oh btw that councillor resigned which would explain his absence: http://www.politics.ie/fine-gael/128320-dublin-south-fine-gael-cllr-jim-oleary-resigning.html
Don't know what the councillor was on about in terms of residents needing amenities. There aren't many residents beside the Park and the ballyogan folk have a supermarket/shopping centre.

Why would a developer want to build a supermarket and amenities if there were no customers?
 

Odyessus

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Thread is here http://www.politics.ie/environment/126599-gromley-launch-investigation-into-local-planning-issues-2.html

Very interesting. I'd call it a mega-mall too. One thing not mentioned on that thread is that here is a Dunnes up the road at ballyogan already - it's a little shopping centre with a Dunnes, and a few small shops (I think a hairdressers and a pharmacy).

Got the new luas out that way the other day. Once you are past the ballyogan road, residential development is minimal. There are the apartments that were sold recently at much reduced prices (think it was NAMA selling them) at Carrickmines.
It'd be as easy for them to get the luas to ballyogan than walk the long walk up the road to the Park. Don't know what the councillor was on about in terms of residents needing amenities. There aren't many residents beside the Park and the ballyogan folk have a supermarket/shopping centre.

Having a cinema in dun laoghaire, dundrum and stillorgan is closer to three cinemas than most people in the country live to one.

Oh btw that councillor resigned which would explain his absence: http://www.politics.ie/fine-gael/128320-dublin-south-fine-gael-cllr-jim-oleary-resigning.html
Don't know what the councillor was on about in terms of residents needing amenities. There aren't many residents beside the Park and the ballyogan folk have a supermarket/shopping centre.

Why would a developer want to build a supermarket and amenities if there were no customers?
 

Mar Tweedy

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Why would a developer want to build a supermarket and amenities if there were no customers?
Exactly. The supermarket and amenities are a red herring. The Park, Carrickmines is a warehouse type shop development. Like so many developments, the commercial parts are built first and the vaunted amenities will never arrive.

None of this is a problem in itself - well, warehouse developments accessible only by car are a problem from a sustainability point of view and are usually full of chainstores (as Carrickmines is) thereby disadvantaging smaller, locally based shops - but even disregarding that, it is not part of DLR planning to have a town centre of that size at that site. It will not "create" any jobs because the only jobs it will "create" will be at the cost of the loss of other jobs in the town centres that have been planned for.
 

cllr-dw

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Eh you've mixed up corruption with bad planning.

I had a massive row oin here with an FG Councillor over this and he fcked off when he had more rezoning to do. I don;t know what this has to do with FF bashing and why you've posted a 5 month old article. The issue of Carrickmine retail park has been discussed. look it up and read my posts there
I note that high court just found against gormley. He was found to have acted ultra vires. Judge commented that those councillors who had voted for the rezoning had taken into account appropriate planning consideratons.
 

alonso

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Saw that cllr. This is a desperately dangerous precedent. I must read the judgment and how it can claim that "the Carrickmines developer is solvent while the Cherrywood one isn't" constitutes the taking into account of appropriate planning considerations. Carrickmines is now a byword for the worst and most corrupt that Irish planning has to offer due to decisions in the past, related to zonings, motorway and luas alignments. This is just another one to add to the list. (Nothing in that statement is accusing any of the current councillors of corruption in relation to this decision, obviously)

I stand by absolutely everything I posted on this matter before and when the motorway junction is clogged in the future while empty luases trundle past hundreds of metres away, and when a new planning application to extend it even further is lodged while vacancy in other areas rises, I will come back to this thread. I will still be a planner in this town, cllr, dealing with the same legacies I deal with now in other locations, while you will have returned to your day job.

Groundhog Day for planning in Dublin.
 

cllr-dw

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When you don't agree it's corruption. Cllrs are wrong, developers are wrong, other planning consultants are wrong and now high court judges are wrong. What arrogance.
 

Odyessus

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When you don't agree it's corruption. Cllrs are wrong, developers are wrong, other planning consultants are wrong and now high court judges are wrong. What arrogance.

That's par for the course on this board.
 

alonso

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When you don't agree it's corruption. Cllrs are wrong, developers are wrong, other planning consultants are wrong and now high court judges are wrong. What arrogance.
I didn't call this decision corruption cllr.

Councillors have been proven wrong on a million decisions in this country. Go on youtube and type in "prime time the pressure zone" for an hour of evidence.

Developers are developers FFS - Are the ghost estates not wrong? Was Ballsbridge not wrong? etc etc etc. If you're gonna use the opinions of the men who broke Ireland to back up your argument, well jaysus...

I'm a planner and as a consultant of course you are wrong. you are wrong all the damn time but it's what pays your wages. You are an advocate for your client, the developer. That;s how the system works. It's unfortunate but that's how it is.

And I never said the judge was wrong. I questioned his judgment and would like to read it. And by the way, the judge's decision is a legal one not a planning one and in no way whatsoever vindicates the approach being taken. It's similar to the "have regard" arguments from the Meath case a few years back - are you familiar with that landmark planning case? Nothing to do with proper planning at all...

This is an extermely worrying development. It has totally undermined any strides towards good planning in this country
 

joemomma

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I must read the judgment and how it can claim that "the Carrickmines developer is solvent while the Cherrywood one isn't" constitutes the taking into account of appropriate planning considerations.
If that forms part of the judgement then it is indeed a dangerous precedent. How often have we heard totally inappropriate rezonings justified on the basis that the developer who has a interest in the land is "ready to go"? The ownership of the land should be entirely immaterial to its proper planning.

From the coverage I've read of the court decision it seems the judge has more or less found that under the existing legislation councillors have a right to be wrong. What's interesting is that the directions in this case were issued under the planning acts before they were amended by the 2010 Act. I wonder if directions under the new Act would be more robust.
 

onthefence

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Saw that cllr. This is a desperately dangerous precedent. I must read the judgment and how it can claim that "the Carrickmines developer is s
ow in other locations, while you will have returned to your day job.

Groundhog Day for planning in Dublin.

I always read your posts with interest as I find them cogent. Cllr should reread the postings
 

Socratus O' Pericles

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If that forms part of the judgement then it is indeed a dangerous precedent. How often have we heard totally inappropriate rezonings justified on the basis that the developer who has a interest in the land is "ready to go"? The ownership of the land should be entirely immaterial to its proper planning.

From the coverage I've read of the court decision it seems the judge has more or less found that under the existing legislation councillors have a right to be wrong. What's interesting is that the directions in this case were issued under the planning acts before they were amended by the 2010 Act. I wonder if directions under the new Act would be more robust.
Can anyone post a link to the judgement please? Can it /will it be appealed?
 

Mar Tweedy

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When you don't agree it's corruption. Cllrs are wrong, developers are wrong, other planning consultants are wrong and now high court judges are wrong. What arrogance.
Have you just woken up after a 40 year sleep?

Like Alonso, I am not suggesting that this particular decision or anything to do with it had anything to do with corruption nor that any councillor involved in this decision was not making the decision on the basis of what they thought was best.

Nevertheless given the history of planning and corruption in Ireland, anything less than an attitude of general skepticism, would be naive, no?

I know this article is referring to a completely different decision which has no relationship to the decision which is the subject of this thread, but I'm curious - is it the same piece of land that they relate to?
from Cosgrave faces corrupt payment charges | Irish Examiner
Cosgrave faces corrupt payment charges

FORMER Fine Gael TD Liam Cosgrave Jnr was arrested and brought before court charged with receiving illegal payments linked to the controversial Carrickmines development.

The charges against the 54-year-old were heard during a brief appearance at the Dublin District Court, after which he was remanded on bail until his next appearance before the court tomorrow.

Garda Martin Harrington of the Criminal Assets Bureau said that when the charges were put to Cosgrave at 1.30pm yesterday, he replied "not guilty".

The son of former taoiseach Liam Cosgrave is the fifth politician to be charged in connection with the bribery investigation in the past week. Last Friday, four former Dublin County Councillors — Don Lydon, Seán Gilbride, Tony Fox and Colm McGrath — all pleaded not guilty to charges relating to planning corruption linked to the rezoning of lands in Carrickmines, Co Dublin, during the 1990s.

Jim Kennedy, a tax exile and owner of an amusement arcade in Dublin, is also charged with 16 counts of paying bribes to politicians in return for their support to rezone lands owned by his company, Jackson Way Properties, at Carrickmines.

Cosgrave, of 103 Merrion Park, Blackrock, Co Dublin, faces five charges.

The first was that, as an office holder or a director of Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown County Council, he received money as an inducement to vote in favour of a motion that the council rezone almost 37 acres of land at E Industrial in Carrickmines.

The charges allege that between June 12 and June 29, 1992, he received money to vote in Dublin County Council in favour of the local authority rezoning for development a 108-acre plot.

He is also accused of receiving money on December 23, 1997, to vote for the zoning of 88 acres of land in Carrickmines, and also of receiving a payment on October 30 that year, again for voting in favour of rezoning the 88 acres.

He is also accused of receiving a payment on December 23, 1997, for agreeing to vote in favour of rezoning 36.85 acres of land at Carrickmines.


Read more: Cosgrave faces corrupt payment charges | Irish Examiner
 

EoinMn

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Sure we need a few more ghost shopping centres to go with the ghost estates.

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it isn't total muppetry.
 

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