A More Equal Ireland ?

Bill D Gallows

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One of the 'achievements' of the FF/PD Governments has been the creation of one of the most unequal societies in the developed world.

There are currently just under 2 million workers in Ireland. The lowest paid 50% earn 30% of the wealth. The top paid 6% also earn 30% of the wealth.

The Government's intention to tax the lower paid and those on social welfare will widen the gap between rich and poor.

Ireland ranks nearly at the bottom of EU countries in terms of life expectancy, crime rates, suicide, health problems, personal debt. Countries who have more unequal societies fare poorer on these issues. More equal societies fare better, for example the Scandinavian countries.

There is irrefutable scientific evidence to show what our Government's economic policies are doing is making our country a worse place to live in, for everybody, including the rich.

The way to reduce inequality is to tax those who are best off in our society, so that the gap between rich and poor closes.

If you believe the poor should pay tax, then if you also believe in a more equal society, the rich must be taxed along with the poor to a much higher degree, in order to make society more equal.

In other words, you can scientifically demonstrate our Government are creating a country of haves and have nots, in which the poorest are being made to pay for the mistakes and recklessness of the rich.

What sort of a country do you believe in ?

PS: You can get all of the facts and figures in the recent book 'the spirit level'. There are Powerpoint slideshows available online if you Google them.

Here's the link to the facts, read them then make your comments: http://www.slideshare.net/equalitytrust/the-spirit-level-slides-from-the-equality-trust
 
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Mossy Heneberry

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Ireland ranks nearly at the bottom of EU countries in terms of life expectancy, crime rates, suicide, health problems, personal debt. Countries who have more unequal societies fare poorer on these issues. More equal societies fare better, for example the Scandinavian countries.
Have you any links for this?
 

AirTurbulence

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Just read in Independent this morning (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/property-tax-an-assault-on-our-identity-2418567.html):
"...an investment property will only be liable for a comparatively small €200 Non-Principal Private Residential (NPPR) tax..."
"...Incidentally, to point out another inequity; it is a little-known fact that ministers are exempt from NPPR tax..."

Nauseating if true. And we are (the public), are some awful suckers, which is also nauseating. Criticizing the French for striking while bending over to home grown enemies of the State.
 

Keith-M

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Can we compare these numbers with other countries and also see how much people are taking home, not earning? "Earning" means little or nothing if a huge portion is going back to the state in the form of taxation.
 
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Kevin Parlon

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Ireland ranks nearly at the bottom of EU countries in terms of life expectancy, crime rates, suicide, health problems, personal debt. Countries who have more unequal societies fare poorer on these issues. More equal societies fare better, for example the Scandinavian countries.
These would be the same scandinavian countries whose welfare systems are on the brink of collapse? Hmmm.... Go on...


There is irrefutable scientific evidence to show what our Government's economic policies are doing is making our country a worse place to live in, for everybody, including the rich.
There is? Care to share?

The way to reduce inequality is to tax those who are best off in our society, so that the gap between rich and poor closes.
That drags the creative and productive down. How about dragging the indolent and the lazy up? Why can't we do that instead?


If you believe the poor should pay tax, then if you also believe in a more equal society, the rich must be taxed along with the poor to a much higher degree, in order to make society more equal.
Tax bands? Poorest in Ireland out of the tax net (an almost unique achievement?)

I don't believe the poor should pay any tax. However, I don't believe success and effort should be penalised. If there is an adjustment to be made, it is that the unproductive should be made more productive. Afterall, which lifestyle is more admirable? That of the hardworking man who makes a success of things or that of the irresponsible dolt who spends half his life on the dole? I don't know why you assume that the sector of society who must "move" in this case are the ones already doing more than their fair share.

In other words, you can scientifically demonstrate our Government are creating a country of haves and have nots, in which the poorest are being made to pay for the mistakes and recklessness of the rich.
You are referring to the bank bailout? A horrific injustice upon the Irish taxpayer I agree. But what about the POV which points out that it is the "rich" who are in fact, made to pay for the irresponsibility and indolence of the feckless poor through dole and benefits?

What sort of a country do you believe in ?
A country that honours hard work over the hand out. A country guided by an overriding sense of duty, not an all pervading sense of entitlement.
 

ManOfReason

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How about a 'fair' Ireland instead of a procrustean Ireland. What is wrong with a country where their is an equality of opportunity but productivity is rewarded and gombeenism punished. Where the long term unemployed are given a helping hand rather then a hand-out that condems them to a life on the dole. Where taxation raised is sufficient to run a civil society, but that tax money is spend by politicians with the same restrained the would spend their own money. Where today's perks are not paid for by borrowed money that will have to be paid back by future generations.

All too late now of course because we no longer have control over the economic direction of this country - and we only have ourselves to blame.
 

Kevin Doyle

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How about a 'fair' Ireland instead of a procrustean Ireland. What is wrong with a country where their is an equality of opportunity but productivity is rewarded and gombeenism punished. Where the long term unemployed are given a helping hand rather then a hand-out that condems them to a life on the dole. Where taxation raised is sufficient to run a civil society, but that tax money is spend by politicians with the same restrained the would spend their own money. Where today's perks are not paid for by borrowed money that will have to be paid back by future generations.

All too late now of course because we no longer have control over the economic direction of this country - and we only have ourselves to blame.
How about a 90% tax on all inheritance above say €60,000
 

TradCat

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Bill D Gallows

Those who believe in higher taxes should first demand that the taxes we do pay are spent properly. What we saw during the bubble was that tax collected becomes a slush fund for buying off vested interests. As the private sector workers who pay the tax have nobody at the table to speak for them they naturally become reluctant to throw good money after bad.

Spending must be demonstrably fair before the state can get a hearing for higher taxes. Real Social Democrats get this but sadly for us our Social Democrats tend to be disappointed communists who bring all the resentment and stupidity of their former ideology to bear on the spending question. So we get entitlements they can't fund and refuse to contemplate alternatives ways of delivering services.

A grown up Social Democrat party would probably do well in Ireland. But the Irish left are married to Marxist backwardness and refuse to listen to actual workers.
 

Kevin Parlon

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Bill D Gallows

Those who believe in higher taxes should first demand that the taxes we do pay are spent properly. What we saw durin.......

....rty would probably do well in Ireland. But the Irish left are married to Marxist backwardness and refuse to listen to actual workers.
+1
 

Kevin Doyle

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These would be the same scandinavian countries whose welfare systems are on the brink of collapse? Hmmm.... Go on....
Rubbish






That drags the creative and productive down. How about dragging the indolent and the lazy up? Why can't we do that instead?
Wrong on both counts, being taxed more because you are in a position to afford paying more tax doesnt drag you down, as for the rising tide principle we've all seen what a load of hogwash that is. Countries with proper progressive tax regimes generally offer better standards of living to their citizens across all demographs with much lower rates of poverty.



Tax bands? Poorest in Ireland out of the tax net (an almost unique achievement?)

I don't believe the poor should pay any tax. However, I don't believe success and effort should be penalised. If there is an adjustment to be made, it is that the unproductive should be made more productive. Afterall, which lifestyle is more admirable? That of the hardworking man who makes a success of things or that of the irresponsible dolt who spends half his life on the dole? I don't know why you assume that the sector of society who must "move" in this case are the ones already doing more than their fair share.
They are not paying their fair share, that is the problem, collectively the wealthiest section of Irish society pays an effective tax rate of 27%, not the much vaunted marginal rate of 52%, if they actually paid what they should be paying the tax recouped would be 6-7 billion. The fact that the 5% pay 45% of income taxes just indicates how much money these people are making and even still they arent being taxed correctly. Time for all the lopholes and incentives for existing income streams to stop, incentives should be strictly for start ups with a very short time span, not part of the continuing tax criteria for those already raking it in.






A country that honours hard work over the hand out. A country guided by an overriding sense of duty, not an all pervading sense of entitlement.
Good well then you no problem with slapping a massive tax on inheritance,
 

TradCat

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Why is it not fair?
Because it's their money to spend as they wish. A punitive inheritance tax implies that people just have the use of the money they make but it really belongs to the state and it should revert to the state when they die.

That would destroy incentive as much as any other high tax. I would tax inheritance like any other income not at a punitive rate.
 

Kevin Doyle

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Because the contribution of the state to the accumulation of wealth was not in the region of 90% - otherwise we would all die wealthy.
What has that go to with inheritance? The accumulaion of wealth can only be achieved within the mechanisms afforded it by the State, dont kid yourslef otherwise.
 

Kevin Doyle

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Because it's their money to spend as they wish. A punitive inheritance tax implies that people just have the use of the money they make but it really belongs to the state and it should revert to the state when they die.

That would destroy incentive as much as any other high tax. I would tax inheritance like any other income not at a punitive rate.
So really you have no problem with vast sums of money going to people who didnt earn it and in addition feel entitled to it.
 

ManOfReason

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What has that go to with inheritance? The accumulaion of wealth can only be achieved within the mechanisms afforded it by the State, dont kid yourslef otherwise.
Clearly nonsense.
 

Kevin Doyle

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Because it's their money to spend as they wish. A punitive inheritance tax implies that people just have the use of the money they make but it really belongs to the state and it should revert to the state when they die.

That would destroy incentive as much as any other high tax. I would tax inheritance like any other income not at a punitive rate.
As i've stated before this incentive carrot isn't all its cracked up to be, the accumulated wealth in this country barely contributes to our recovery, is not invested in anything bar the future well being of offspring. A lot of wealth was accumulated through incentives which is essentially tax forgone under the guise of greater investment and enterprise leading to more job creation etc etc. Thats not happening and its time the state took back what it shouldnt have given away in the first place as soon as it became apparant these tax reliefs where only benefitting a tiny minority of already wealthy individuals.
 


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