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A More United Ireland


Shiloh

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2008
Messages
323
Some interesting ideas here before it descended into personal insult.

The first step an All Ireland President with a remit to move towards a more united Ireland.

Initially this could be confined to sporting and cultural matters. After that education and health and after that the President could call and chair talks on political unity.

A few problems might be

1. For unionists what is the constitutional status of the Pressie (vis a vis the Monarch of England)
2. If she/he is the an All Ireland Pressie is he an All Irish Pressie i.e. what about Declan Rice and the Diaspora - does he represent them. Can they vote?
3. Problems always have solutions though - I'd suggest Bertie Ahern
 

death or glory

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 1, 2012
Messages
17,995
Some interesting ideas here before it descended into personal insult.

The first step an All Ireland President with a remit to move towards a more united Ireland.

Initially this could be confined to sporting and cultural matters. After that education and health and after that the President could call and chair talks on political unity.

A few problems might be

1. For unionists what is the constitutional status of the Pressie (vis a vis the Monarch of England)
2. If she/he is the an All Ireland Pressie is he an All Irish Pressie i.e. what about Declan Rice and the Diaspora - does he represent them. Can they vote?
3. Problems always have solutions though - I'd suggest Bertie Ahern
The problem is your presumption that the PUL community actually want a United Ireland when the opposite is true.
So you are living in dream land if you think Unionists will do anything that will encourage or promote a United Ireland unless you think turkeys vote for Christmas.
 

Shiloh

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2008
Messages
323
I would take 50% +1 to set the process in train (i.e. All -Ireland President, talks with all the main parties etc). That would be the border poll. A second referendum should then take place on whatever deal was arrived at and that would require a 60-40 in favour to pass.
 

Newrybhoy

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2018
Messages
2,528
Some interesting ideas here before it descended into personal insult.

The first step an All Ireland President with a remit to move towards a more united Ireland.

Initially this could be confined to sporting and cultural matters. After that education and health and after that the President could call and chair talks on political unity.

A few problems might be

1. For unionists what is the constitutional status of the Pressie (vis a vis the Monarch of England)
2. If she/he is the an All Ireland Pressie is he an All Irish Pressie i.e. what about Declan Rice and the Diaspora - does he represent them. Can they vote?
3. Problems always have solutions though - I'd suggest Bertie Ahern
First point, unionists don't want anything to do with your "All lreland president". Nationalists already think that they have one.

Secondly the presumption that 100% of Catholics will vote for a UI is pure fantasy. If they got 60% of Catholics to turn out and vote for a UI that's the height of it.

Far too many will put their personal situation first and the Republic can't deal with that.

The benefits types can easily be persuaded as long as they get free health care and get to keep their houses and DLA cars.

Civil servants threatened with the axe, not so much. Teachers threatened with mergers , not so much etc etc.

Combine that with the fact that if they get 1% of voting Prods to back it and that's game over.
 

raetsel

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2017
Messages
7,016
First point, unionists don't want anything to do with your "All lreland president". Nationalists already think that they have one.

Secondly the presumption that 100% of Catholics will vote for a UI is pure fantasy. If they got 60% of Catholics to turn out and vote for a UI that's the height of it.

Far too many will put their personal situation first and the Republic can't deal with that.

The benefits types can easily be persuaded as long as they get free health care and get to keep their houses and DLA cars.

Civil servants threatened with the axe, not so much. Teachers threatened with mergers , not so much etc etc.

Combine that with the fact that if they get 1% of voting Prods to back it and that's game over.
You're still residing in LaLa Land, I see. You assume you know how nationalists think but you don't, and given your hard line unionism, and your past record of sectarianism, it is pretty obvious that you're exactly the sort of chap who would know very few of us well enough to have an honest conversation about this topic.
Last time Lucid Talk polled on the topic of a united Ireland in the event of Brexit, in December 2018 these were the results.

Options%NationalistNeutralUnionist
Remain in UK - 100% certain.380580
Remain in UK - probably4096
Don't know32163
Join UI - probably75266
Join UI - certain4893445

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/024943_b89b42d32364461298ba5fe7867d82e1.pdf
(P16.)
It is also obvious that you're overestimating the amount of antipathy among nominal unionists towards a united Ireland. 11% would certainly or probably vote that way, and another 3% might be persuaded. The 11% figure doesn't surprise me at all. In a Belfast Telegraph poll in 2014, when asked to consider a hypothetical referendum in 20 years time, 11.4% of unionists said they'd vote for Irish unity.



Northern Ireland says 'yes' to a border poll... but a firm 'no' to united Ireland - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

poll2.jpg

It is perfectly clear that NI farmers and businessmen that a hard Brexit will lead to a pretty shocking downturn in our local economy yet apparently 66% of unionists are relaxed about the prospect. If unionists are prepared to support Brexit despite the near certainty that it will make them poorer, why on earth would think that nationalists would be any different and view Irish unity purely from a monetary angle?
I think that the answer may well lie in the fact that you have an extremely negative view of us. :)
 
Last edited:

death or glory

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 1, 2012
Messages
17,995
You're still residing in LaLa Land, I see. You assume you know how nationalists think but you don't, and given your hard line unionism, and your past record of sectarianism, it is pretty obvious that you're exactly the sort of chap who would know very few of us well enough to have an honest conversation about this topic.
Last time Lucid Talk polled on the topic of a united Ireland in the event of Brexit, in December 2018 these were the results.

Options%NationalistNeutralUnionist
Remain in UK - 100% certain.380580
Remain in UK - probably4096
Don't know32163
Join UI - probably75266
Join UI - certain4893445

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/024943_b89b42d32364461298ba5fe7867d82e1.pdf
(P16.)
It is also obvious that you're overestimating the amount of antipathy among nominal unionists towards a united Ireland. 11% would certainly or probably vote that way, and another 3% might be persuaded. The 11% figure doesn't surprise me at all. In a Belfast Telegraph poll in 2014, when asked to consider a hypothetical referendum in 20 years time, 11.4% of unionists said they'd vote for Irish unity.



Northern Ireland says 'yes' to a border poll... but a firm 'no' to united Ireland - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

View attachment 17575
The headline of link to that graph says it all
"Firm NO to a United Ireland",
it couldn't get simpler, even for someone as arrogant as yourself.
 

AhNowStop

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
8,054
We could not accept 50+1 in a border poll I think that is a lesson both from Irish History and from Brexit. On such a fundamental issue you cant have 49.99% of the population on the wrong side of the vote.

On a very rough reading of how a border poll might pan out (after a long campaign etc)

For a UI 40%

Against 45%

These groups would be broken down around fairly traditional nationalist unionist lines.

The remaining 15% would decide the issue. These voters would be basically the new NIrish and I reckon they would split 10% for and 5 % against. Meaning we would have almost a tie. No good for anyone. Particularly if the dissenting population have a tradition of para-militarism.

To achieve a workable border poll in favour of a UI we should be looking for at least 20% of traditionalist unionist voters to switch sides i.e. 45 x 0.2 = 9% (round to 10%)

So

For a UI 40%
Against (45-10) = 35%
NIrish 10% for 5% against


Result Tá 60%
Níl 40%

So we should insist on a qualified majority decision and it should be 60/40
whos is this "we" you talk of ? ..... if its "you" then you should realise it simply aint up to you ... its already been agreed upon & written into an internationally legally binding treaty...

and lets say you did get your way and democracy was stifled as we were told we need 60% of the vote to gain a UI ... what do you suggest we say to dissidents etc.,.. "democracy doesnt work for nationalists" is that it ? ... what do you think would happen after that ?

you havent thought this through
 

AhNowStop

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
8,054
We could not accept 50+1 in a border poll I think that is a lesson both from Irish History and from Brexit. On such a fundamental issue you cant have 49.99% of the population on the wrong side of the vote.

On a very rough reading of how a border poll might pan out (after a long campaign etc)

For a UI 40%

Against 45%

These groups would be broken down around fairly traditional nationalist unionist lines.

The remaining 15% would decide the issue. These voters would be basically the new NIrish and I reckon they would split 10% for and 5 % against. Meaning we would have almost a tie. No good for anyone. Particularly if the dissenting population have a tradition of para-militarism.

To achieve a workable border poll in favour of a UI we should be looking for at least 20% of traditionalist unionist voters to switch sides i.e. 45 x 0.2 = 9% (round to 10%)

So

For a UI 40%
Against (45-10) = 35%
NIrish 10% for 5% against


Result Tá 60%
Níl 40%

So we should insist on a qualified majority decision and it should be 60/40
having read your post again Im confident you're just on a wind up mission :rolleyes:
 

AhNowStop

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
8,054
Well a United Ireland is not inevitable, and there is no probability of there being one in the foreseeable future.
Why bother your head and yourselves about such a irrelevance.
lol, you keep telling yourself that wee man :ROFLMAO:

9781783433643_Z.jpg


ye poor deluded eejit.....
 

raetsel

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2017
Messages
7,016
The headline of link to that graph says it all
"Firm NO to a United Ireland",
it couldn't get simpler, even for someone as arrogant as yourself.
You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, DOG. Why on earth would you think that a poll taken in 2014 is more representative of current public opinion than one taken 4 months ago? 🙄
The 2014 BT poll was taken before Brexit became an issue, and in the wake of a lot of negative economic news from the south. The Lucid Talk poll was taken over 4 years later when everything changed dramatically. Furthermore the 2014 sampling, taken in the context of the financial crisis in the Republic, showed that the underlying sentiment for Irish unity eventually, was still surprisingly strong in the circumstances at 29.7, and support for the union with Britain was rather underwhelming at only 44%, with 26.3% undecided. Quite a few of those 26.3% seem to have fallen down on the side of Irish unity in the meantime.
But it is very telling that in 2014, only 44% declared themselves as firm "conviction" unionists. At the end of 2018 that figure dropped to 42% while support for Irish unity has surged forward.
 
Last edited:

Newrybhoy

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2018
Messages
2,528
You're still residing in LaLa Land, I see. You assume you know how nationalists think but you don't, and given your hard line unionism, and your past record of sectarianism, it is pretty obvious that you're exactly the sort of chap who would know very few of us well enough to have an honest conversation about this topic.
Last time Lucid Talk polled on the topic of a united Ireland in the event of Brexit, in December 2018 these were the results.

Options%NationalistNeutralUnionist
Remain in UK - 100% certain.380580
Remain in UK - probably4096
Don't know32163
Join UI - probably75266
Join UI - certain4893445

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/024943_b89b42d32364461298ba5fe7867d82e1.pdf
(P16.)
It is also obvious that you're overestimating the amount of antipathy among nominal unionists towards a united Ireland. 11% would certainly or probably vote that way, and another 3% might be persuaded. The 11% figure doesn't surprise me at all. In a Belfast Telegraph poll in 2014, when asked to consider a hypothetical referendum in 20 years time, 11.4% of unionists said they'd vote for Irish unity.



Northern Ireland says 'yes' to a border poll... but a firm 'no' to united Ireland - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

View attachment 17575

It is perfectly clear that NI farmers and businessmen that a hard Brexit will lead to a pretty shocking downturn in our local economy yet apparently 66% of unionists are relaxed about the prospect. If unionists are prepared to support Brexit despite the near certainty that it will make them poorer, why on earth would think that nationalists would be any different and view Irish unity purely from a monetary angle?
I think that the answer may well lie in the fact that you have an extremely negative view of us. :)
Prod farmers know they will have money whatever happens. Most have owned their farms for generations and owe nothing. They aren't relying on a handout to make ends meet.

A civil servant is a different thing and it's been made clear that the cots to this sector would fall disproportionately in N I.

The principal of St Mary's primary with 37 pupils on her 60k ain't voting for a UI anytime soon.
 

raetsel

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2017
Messages
7,016
Just to add to that, It has been pretty clear now for some years that, at this point well under 50% of the population are firm 'conviction' unionists, while the rest are either firmly nationalist, neutral, or 'don't knows'.
Any unionist who dismisses the possibility of a united Ireland being a realistic prospect within his or her lifetime, is turning a blind eye to the statistical facts, unless of course they happen to be in the last stages of a terminal illness. :)
 

between the bridges

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
45,683
Just to add to that, It has been pretty clear now for some years that, at this point well under 50% of the population are firm 'conviction' unionists, while the rest are either firmly nationalist, neutral, or 'don't knows'.
Any unionist who dismisses the possibility of a united Ireland being a realistic prospect within his or her lifetime, is turning a blind eye to the statistical facts, unless of course they happen to be in the last stages of a terminal illness. :)
Indeed, horse in fact moi thinks it will happen by 2016, oh wait...
 

AhNowStop

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
8,054
You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, DOG. Why on earth would you think that a poll taken in 2014 is more representative of current public opinion than one taken 4 months ago? 🙄
The 2014 BT poll was taken before Brexit became an issue, and in the wake of a lot of negative economic news from the south. The Lucid Talk poll was taken over 4 years later when everything changed dramatically. Furthermore the 2014 sampling, taken in the context of the financial crisis in the Republic, showed that the underlying sentiment for Irish unity eventually, was still surprisingly strong in the circumstances at 29.7, and support for the union with Britain was rather underwhelming at only 44%, with 26.3% undecided. Quite a few of those 26.3% seem to have fallen down on the side of Irish unity in the meantime.
But it is very telling that in 2014, only 44% declared themselves as firm "conviction" unionists. At the end of 2018 that figure dropped to 42% while support for Irish unity has surged forward.
tbf he still wont get it :rolleyes:
 

mangaire2

Active member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
134
The principal of St Mary's primary with 37 pupils on her 60k ain't voting for a UI anytime soon.
you're correct, to a extent.
as long as the prods & the Brits continue to feed the crocodiles the crocodiles will be happy.

the problem for you is that crocodiles have insatiable appetites,
& there will be more of them, than there will be Prods to feed them.
 
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