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A new constitution or radical changes to the existing one ?


SlabMurphy

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Clearly Ireland needs totally new structures to run the country. The Dail, the senior Civil service and semi states and of course the bankers have turned the country into a waste land. But what is the whole focus at the moment ? The budget for the next 4 years. As if to say if we get that right lads and appease the international financial community, then it's carry on as usual without the fundamental and radical way this country is ran.

Now if we have a FG/Labour govt and they change some laws etc well and good for the time being. But FF will sooner or later be back, 4/8 years, and they can then set about tailoring the Dail law's to facilitate corruption, cronyism and incompetence again. Example the Freedom of Information and Ethics in Public Office Acts passed during the FG/Labour coalition which were watered to make meaningless by the lowlfie criminals of FF.

Therefore what I am saying is, surely their will have to be constitutional changes to make sure that acts like these and others such as regulation of the banks, corporate crime etc will have to be tied into the constitution so that future scumbags of FF govt's cannot get in and in stealth fashion, obliterate their powers so they and their rich cronies can get on with the task of robbing and destroying the country ?

So anyway, here are some ideas from Constantin Gurdgiev regarding fundamantal changes that could be incorporated regarding Governance, Banking etc

True Economics: Economics 27/8/10: Manifesto I (?)
 

cropbeye

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Aug 3, 2006
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944
New constitution or radical change

There is a lot of national self hatred spouted about our constitution.

Many commentators and contributors make very illinformed comments about it.

Of course a 73 year old document will from time to time need to be ammended in places.

However we shouldnt throw out the baby with the bath water.
 

TradCat

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Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
1,992
It would be very hard to pass a new one as we'd all take exception to something. Perhaps we should try political reform first as our major political problems are caused by the failings of the system.
 

Casualbets

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Jun 7, 2004
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1,638
SlabMurphy's post is a bit rambling given that he poses a question in the title which he doesn't actually address in his post...

Any changes should be made by means of individual amendments to the existing constitution, so that they can be considered separately on their own merits.

Trying to get a new constitution passed would be a colossal waste of time - addressing issues such as governance, regulation and systematic reform through constitutional changes, but these would be far better processed through individual amendments to the current constitution where they would stand a reasonable chance of (a) all party concensus and (b) actually being passed.

Trying to embody governance, regulation and systematic reform in the constitution by trying to pass a new constitution will serve to ensure that the debate won't be about
governance, regulation and systematic reform but about abortion and a hundred and one other issues which mightn't be deemed particularly relevant but which would serve to antagonise particular groups of voters. In other words, it would be a waste of time and effort and serve merely to delay needed reform.

The golden rule of Constitutional referenda is that if someone 90% agrees with a proposal, and 10% disagrees with it - in other words if they have doubts - they vote against it. Therefore, keep it simple. A new constitution is the antithesis of simplicity.
 

Fr. Hank Tree

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Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
5,907
Clearly Ireland needs totally new structures to run the country. The Dail, the senior Civil service and semi states and of course the bankers have turned the country into a waste land. But what is the whole focus at the moment ? The budget for the next 4 years. As if to say if we get that right lads and appease the international financial community, then it's carry on as usual without the fundamental and radical way this country is ran.

Now if we have a FG/Labour govt and they change some laws etc well and good for the time being. But FF will sooner or later be back, 4/8 years, and they can then set about tailoring the Dail law's to facilitate corruption, cronyism and incompetence again. Example the Freedom of Information and Ethics in Public Office Acts passed during the FG/Labour coalition which were watered to make meaningless by the lowlfie criminals of FF.

Therefore what I am saying is, surely their will have to be constitutional changes to make sure that acts like these and others such as regulation of the banks, corporate crime etc will have to be tied into the constitution so that future scumbags of FF govt's cannot get in and in stealth fashion, obliterate their powers so they and their rich cronies can get on with the task of robbing and destroying the country ?

So anyway, here are some ideas from Constantin Gurdgiev regarding fundamantal changes that could be incorporated regarding Governance, Banking etc

True Economics: Economics 27/8/10: Manifesto I (?)
I blame the references to God. Clearly that is intrinsically related to much of our problems. That's what we should be talking about. References to the nation should be taken out aswell. They contribute towards the "nationalist fog" that is so intrinsic to much of our problems. Maybe some form of apology should be included aswell.
 
Last edited:

Odyessus

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Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
12,987
There is a lot of national self hatred spouted about our constitution.

Many commentators and contributors make very illinformed comments about it.

Of course a 73 year old document will from time to time need to be ammended in places.

However we shouldnt throw out the baby with the bath water.


I'd wager that most people calling for a new Constitution have never even read the present one.
 

ne0ica

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Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
8,447
There is a lot of national self hatred spouted about our constitution.

Many commentators and contributors make very illinformed comments about it.

Of course a 73 year old document will from time to time need to be ammended in places.

However we shouldnt throw out the baby with the bath water.
Agree. Too often the Left seeks simple solutions. How often have we been told by liberal commentators that by simply banny alcohol commercials we would stop binge drinking. We need a damatic reform of our electoral system first. The current PR system left behing by the Brits has produced a system where TD's are ultra competitative with eachother, and have become glorified social workers. Where most TD's inherit their fathers or uncle seat.
 

ne0ica

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Oct 22, 2009
Messages
8,447
I blame the references to God. Clearly that is intrinsically related to much of our problems. That's what we should be talking about. References to the nation should be taken out aswell. They contribute towards the "nationalist fog" that is so intrinsic to much of our problems.
What are you talking about. Most countries have references to God and country in their constitution. How can you claim either references in our constitution contribute to our current problems. Silly man.
 

Fr. Hank Tree

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Feb 1, 2007
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5,907
What are you talking about. Most countries have references to God and country in their constitution. How can you claim either references in our constitution contribute to our current problems. Silly man.
I was taking the mick.
 

Ciarán Mac Mathghamhna

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Jun 7, 2007
Messages
185
I'd be in favour of an entirely new republic and constitution. I simply can't see the current political actors proposing anything that would change their way of life.

More to the point, it's been tried already. For example, if I'm not very much mistaken, Noel Dempsey twice made proposals about reforming the Seanad, and didn't get very far, and I don't think that was anything to do with the quality of the proposals, but rather that there was no appetite for change. I really can't see FG and Labour doing a whole lot different. I mean, I'm sure they will change things, but I don't envisage them making the type of constutional changes that are necessary to restore public faith in the State.

By which I mean things like recall elections like they have in California. If a petition receives a certain number of signatures, it can force an elected representative to run again. But can you imagine any member of the current Dáil proposing something like this? Something genuinely democratic? A few of the younger members maybe, but Cowen? Kenny? I don't think so. Only a new constitution has any chance of guaranteeing the people their republic.
 

Sean O'Brian

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Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Messages
900
Clearly Ireland needs totally new structures to run the country. The Dail, the senior Civil service and semi states and of course the bankers have turned the country into a waste land.
What's to stop them from making a dog's dinner of the new constitution as well?
 

orbit

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Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
701
Clearly Ireland needs totally new structures to run the country. The Dail, the senior Civil service and semi states and of course the bankers have turned the country into a waste land.
Forget about that, we need to throw out the current electorate and get a new one immediately ....
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
96
I was thining of starting a thread along these lines.

Mostly I think the Irish constitution works quite well.

The biggest problem I believe is the electoral system which leads to the clinetelism, nepotism, localism, gombeenism, etc. It does not allow parties to develop along a true ideological basis be it left or right as rather than work on policies individuals are forced to watch their running mates and compete with them on the number of funerals they attend.

The system also prevents or at least impedes the public from becoming part or policy informed as they have a running count on how many funerals TDs attended.

We need to go to the european list system or at least combine elements of it with our existing system. 1 man 2 votes if you will.
 

ne0ica

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Oct 22, 2009
Messages
8,447
I was thining of starting a thread along these lines.

Mostly I think the Irish constitution works quite well.

The biggest problem I believe is the electoral system which leads to the clinetelism, nepotism, localism, gombeenism, etc. It does not allow parties to develop along a true ideological basis be it left or right as rather than work on policies individuals are forced to watch their running mates and compete with them on the number of funerals they attend.

The system also prevents or at least impedes the public from becoming part or policy informed as they have a running count on how many funerals TDs attended.

We need to go to the european list system or at least combine elements of it with our existing system. 1 man 2 votes if you will.
I remember having argument years ago about this very topic. I always believe PR in its current format had to go. However often people would claim that if we removed it FF would be in power forever.Guess what they have.
 

SlabMurphy

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Mar 14, 2009
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www.dublin.ie
Ok folks apart form teh odd wannabe comedian, which is always to be expected, most of the posts have been quite good. To be honest I was sort of shooting in the dark to see what ideas might come out. Ok, lets say the present constitution is generally ok but in order to see that proper governance, regulation and punishment is part of the administration of the country so that we cannot have an FF govt get into power and in stealth fashion get rid of decent laws - how can the constitution or is there another process that can be brought into the country to turn it into a properly run state rather than the sick joke it has become ?
 
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