A New Republic!

hiker

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A New Republic!

We have discussed on this forum many issues both economic and social but I have rarely found a thread that discusses our society as a unit and as an interconnected community.

I have heard and read about different economic and social “models”. Capitalist, Socialist, Democratic, Republican, Monarchy, Communist. Scandic, French, American, Mediterranean, Theological.
The list of models is endless. We seem to search the world for a model that we would like or that might fit us.

My proposal here is to discuss the idea that there is no “model” for Ireland, Éire, Republic of Ireland.

We already have a “model”; it’s the Irish model. If you look at our politics and the type of parties we vote for and that are available to vote for, it’s clear the both Fianna Fail and Fine Gael make up the majority of voters in this island nation.

If I examine both of these parties, it’s clear that both are fairly similar in nature. I know supporters from either side will disagree but I’m a neutral in this and I can tell you that if Fine Gael were in power today the outcomes would be fairly similar.

The third party, Labour, represents a distinct centre/left view which is not a million miles away from Fianna Fail but is still quite conservative just like the two larger parties.

So essentially we are a centre to centre/left Conservative people. We move slowly, we move cautiously, we don’t make too many waves and we tend to desire and search for respect and approval from our larger more dominant neighbours in Europe.

All in all we represent a nation that is not at ease with itself in a world dominated by larger, more aggressive nations. We are more likely to attempt to reach consensus and compromise than to stand independently and against the grain. We are more likely to nod in agreement with the majority after quietly looking around to check that that is what the majority are doing in the first place.

This makes us weak in the eyes of our neighbours, in the eyes of the markets and in the eyes of each other. I often think that the anger we feel around the country is not so much at our politicians but at ourselves for letting these politicians speak on our behalf; to represent us.

We are in the middle of a huge shame-fest that will have a significant influence on us as a people in the future.

We are growing up.

In 5 or 10 years time we will be a completely different nation to what we are now.
We will be assertive, quick to anger, slow to forgive and a hell of a lot harder than we are today. Or at least our elected representative will be.

But what of us, the people, in our own land and homes?
How different will this test of our nationhood affect us and our relations with each other?

I feel a corner has been turned in Ireland. I don’t know exactly when it was turned but there is a new consensus forming among the citizens, taxpayers, voters of this Republic.

In the words of W.B. Yeats, “All is changed, changed utterly; A Terrible Beauty is Born”
 


SlabMurphy

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A New Republic!

We have discussed on this forum many issues both economic and social but I have rarely found a thread that discusses our society as a unit and as an interconnected community.

I have heard and read about different economic and social “models”. Capitalist, Socialist, Democratic, Republican, Monarchy, Communist. Scandic, French, American, Mediterranean, Theological.
The list of models is endless. We seem to search the world for a model that we would like or that might fit us.

My proposal here is to discuss the idea that there is no “model” for Ireland, Éire, Republic of Ireland.

We already have a “model”; it’s the Irish model. If you look at our politics and the type of parties we vote for and that are available to vote for, it’s clear the both Fianna Fail and Fine Gael make up the majority of voters in this island nation.

If I examine both of these parties, it’s clear that both are fairly similar in nature. I know supporters from either side will disagree but I’m a neutral in this and I can tell you that if Fine Gael were in power today the outcomes would be fairly similar.

The third party, Labour, represents a distinct centre/left view which is not a million miles away from Fianna Fail but is still quite conservative just like the two larger parties.

So essentially we are a centre to centre/left Conservative people. We move slowly, we move cautiously, we don’t make too many waves and we tend to desire and search for respect and approval from our larger more dominant neighbours in Europe.

All in all we represent a nation that is not at ease with itself in a world dominated by larger, more aggressive nations. We are more likely to attempt to reach consensus and compromise than to stand independently and against the grain. We are more likely to nod in agreement with the majority after quietly looking around to check that that is what the majority are doing in the first place.

This makes us weak in the eyes of our neighbours, in the eyes of the markets and in the eyes of each other. I often think that the anger we feel around the country is not so much at our politicians but at ourselves for letting these politicians speak on our behalf; to represent us.

We are in the middle of a huge shame-fest that will have a significant influence on us as a people in the future.

We are growing up.

In 5 or 10 years time we will be a completely different nation to what we are now.
We will be assertive, quick to anger, slow to forgive and a hell of a lot harder than we are today. Or at least our elected representative will be.

But what of us, the people, in our own land and homes?
How different will this test of our nationhood affect us and our relations with each other?

I feel a corner has been turned in Ireland. I don’t know exactly when it was turned but there is a new consensus forming among the citizens, taxpayers, voters of this Republic.

In the words of W.B. Yeats, “All is changed, changed utterly; A Terrible Beauty is Born”
No it wouldn't the Gombeen state will be the same as ever - though deeply in debt and the ECB will have to bale it out. Meanwhile Mr and Mrs Citizen will continue to vote for Beverly Flynn, Micheal Healy Rae etc, etc
 

Keith-M

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Give up on this sham independence, where we're doing what we're told by Brussels and Berlin. Re-join the United Kingdom and become part of a G8 country.
 

SlabMurphy

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Give up on this sham independence, where we're doing what we're told by Brussels and Berlin. Re-join the United Kingdom and become part of a G8 country.
Why rejoin a state that's on the way to break up FFS :lol: Ofcourse the Brits don't have vast international borrowing, banking crisis such as Northern Rock etc and getting invovled in wars on the other side of the world as they try to kid themselves that their some kind of imperial superpower but in effect are just America's bitch :rolleyes:
 

hiker

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No it wouldn't the Gombeen state will be the same as ever - though deeply in debt and the ECB will have to bale it out. Meanwhile Mr and Mrs Citizen will continue to vote for Beverly Flynn, Micheal Healy Rae etc, etc
I believe you're wrong.
 

Keith-M

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Why rejoin a state that's on the way to break up FFS :lol: Ofcourse the Brits don't have vast international borrowing, banking crisis such as Northern Rock etc and getting invovled in wars on the other side of the world as they try to kid themselves that their some kind of imperial superpower but in effect are just America's bitch :rolleyes:
What break-up, have you missed the SNP climbdown on a referendum?

As bad as UK borrowing is, it's nowhere near as bad as ours.

Better to be part of a country that takes it's international duties seriously that one that depends on others.
 

kerdasi amaq

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I'm sure the Brits would love to take our national debt on.

I was reading about Sellafield today. The thought crossed my mind that, that monstrosity would be on our west coast if we were still part of that rotten Union.
 

Máistir na Cruinne

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Give up on this sham independence.....Re-join the United Kingdom and become part of a G8 country.
I'd say the United Kingdom would welcome that like a man would welcome a hole in the head.
 

SlabMurphy

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What break-up, have you missed the SNP climbdown on a referendum?

As bad as UK borrowing is, it's nowhere near as bad as ours.
Not far behind us.

Better to be part of a country that takes it's international duties seriously that one that depends on others.
The worst attempt at trolling I've seen for a long time :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

hiker

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I accept that, but it's what I believe SHOULD happen. We have threads here about "a united Ireland" and we all know that won't happen either.
Point taken but lets not wander into imaginary areas of discussion and focus on the topic of the original post.

My point is that we are growing up as a nation and as a republic. These "growing pains" for want of a better phrase are part of it.

I strongly suspect that the voters, especially the newer voters will take a different view of our place in the world over the next 5 to 10 years.

My position as a Euro Federalist wont change but I suspect that our people will become a lot more assertive within the EU community as a result of this financial crisis.

But what about our own internal structures?

How might they change?

Are we locked into this county council, tribalism that has defined us for the last 70 years?
 

SlabMurphy

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Point taken but lets not wander into imaginary areas of discussion and focus on the topic of the original post.

My point is that we are growing up as a nation and as a republic. These "growing pains" for want of a better phrase are part of it.

I strongly suspect that the voters, especially the newer voters will take a different view of our place in the world over the next 5 to 10 years.

My position as a Euro Federalist wont change but I suspect that our people will become a lot more assertive within the EU community as a result of this financial crisis.

But what about our own internal structures?

How might they change?

Are we locked into this county council, tribalism that has defined us for the last 70 years?
Their's no sense of community left, the Celtic Tiger was all about greed, greed, greed. And also what is often called ' revisionism ' which was put on a pedestal of denounciation of Irish nationalism from 1798 - ' a secterian slaughter ' to the 1916 leaders been portrayed and denounced in similiar tones as the 9/11 hijackers and the troubles in the six counties been the fault of the nationalists as they ddin't ' appeal ' properly to the unionists etc, etc :rolleyes:

And some of the greatest supporters of this anti nationalism were none other than the PD's, as rotten and corrupt an institution and politicial baggage as you can get - Harney, McDowell, O'Malley, need I say anything more :rolleyes:
 

Bobert

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Hiker's home! :D

And yeah, what happened to the other new republic we were building?
 

hiker

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Their's no sense of community left, the Celtic Tiger was all about greed, greed, greed. And also what is often called ' revisionism ' which was put on a pedestal of denounciation of Irish nationalism from 1798 - ' a secterian slaughter ' to the 1916 leaders been portrayed and denounced in similiar tones as the 9/11 hijackers and the troubles in the six counties been the fault of the nationalists as they ddin't ' appeal ' properly to the unionists etc, etc :rolleyes:

And some of the greatest supporters of this anti nationalism were none other than the PD's, as rotten and corrupt an institution and politicial baggage as you can get - Harney, McDowell, O'Malley, need I say anything more :rolleyes:
I hold my hand up as anti-nationalist although I'm not sure any of the above were anti-nationalist. I have never had time for people like you who wrap the flag around themselves and use it as an excuse for barbarism.
And thats not just Irish nationalism, but all nationalism.

But the lessons learnt from the lust for money during the Celtic Tiger period is a lesson well learnt, in my opinion.
These lessons will be remebered for a generation or more and we will become a better society for it.
As for community, well that has always been within our own providence. We "choose" to be a community. Governments, county councils or natioal organisations cannot force this upon us. We either want it or we dont.

I would guess that 90% of us live in good, caring communities. 10% of us are stuck in dysfunctional communities. how do we address that?
 

fluffykontbiscuits

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Their's no sense of community left, the Celtic Tiger was all about greed, greed, greed. And also what is often called ' revisionism ' which was put on a pedestal of denounciation of Irish nationalism from 1798 - ' a secterian slaughter ' to the 1916 leaders been portrayed and denounced in similiar tones as the 9/11 hijackers and the troubles in the six counties been the fault of the nationalists as they ddin't ' appeal ' properly to the unionists etc, etc :rolleyes:

And some of the greatest supporters of this anti nationalism were none other than the PD's, as rotten and corrupt an institution and politicial baggage as you can get - Harney, McDowell, O'Malley, need I say anything more :rolleyes:
Dont make me laugh at you, seriously. For someone who cant live in harmony or doesnt seem to want to live in harmony with Unionsim up North you can hardly preach about community values....
 

SlabMurphy

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Dont make me laugh at you, seriously. For someone who cant live in harmony or doesnt seem to want to live in harmony with Unionsim up North you can hardly preach about community values....
The unionists are british, not Irish, they are not my community. Their unwanted parasites forced on the country.

Simples.
 

fluffykontbiscuits

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The unionists are british, not Irish, they are not my community. Their unwanted parasites forced on the country.

Simples.
Definiton thanks to dictionary.com of community

"a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, share government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage"

You're talking through your arse

Simples...
 


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