• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please contact us.




A referendum on both car insurance and extreme proportional representation

Patslatt1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
3,790
In rural Ireland and low income areas of cities, car insurance is becoming unaffordable thanks to generous court awards way out of line with the UK and other EU countries. As the government threatened, if the judiciary don't wake up to the impact on cost of living a referendum may be needed for curbing excessive car insurance awards and especially the plague of dishonest whiplash injury claims.

However, this issue is a minor detail compared to the need for a referendum to reform Ireland's extreme proportional representation voting which in the long run will make the country ungovernable with a proliferation of small squabbling political parties and partisan independent TDs. Revolving door governments like those in Italy and Belgium will become normal.

Constitutional reform can be very complicated. As a stopgap constitutional measure, the number of choices on the ballot paper could be reduced to two or three to curb the proliferation of small political parties. That would offer some of the advantages of the "first past the post" system where the political candidates who have the highest appeal to voters get the highest percentage of the votes and win. Those are usually the most able candidates. In contrast, the numerous choices in Ireland's voting help mediocre candidates to win.
 


Roll_On

Well-known member
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
18,001
Look at the UK's first past the post, which in theory produces stable single party government. The only problem is members of one party can be politically extremely far away from eachother, the UK Labour party for example is home to borderline Soviet style socialism and Centre Right populism. The results are anything but stable.

As for a referendum on car insurance, please stop, that's being a drama queen.
 

locke

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
3,178
In both the UK and the US we see that having a two party system is vulnerable to entryist groups (Momentum, ERG, Tea Party) that can take a party to the extreme.

However, my real quibble is with the car insurance part. There is no way that anything so specific should be written into the constitution. We've had enough trouble with that in the past. Or is there a particular article you are looking to alter/remove in a more general way that would cater to your proposal.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 17, 2011
Messages
50,460
We have high insurance costs because we have an illegal cartel operating as an insurance market. Also, perhaps whiplash claims are higher in Ireland because the cost of follow-up treatment is carried by the injured party, and not provided free by the national health service.

The rest of your post is borderline mental. Our voting system saves us from polemic politics and extreme governments.
 

FunkyBoogaloo

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
2,936
In rural Ireland and low income areas of cities, car insurance is becoming unaffordable thanks to generous court awards way out of line with the UK and other EU countries. As the government threatened, if the judiciary don't wake up to the impact on cost of living a referendum may be needed for curbing excessive car insurance awards and especially the plague of dishonest whiplash injury claims.
Correction... is unaffordable, not becoming.

However, this issue is a minor detail compared to the need for a referendum to reform Ireland's extreme proportional representation voting which in the long run will make the country ungovernable with a proliferation of small squabbling political parties and partisan independent TDs. Revolving door governments like those in Italy and Belgium will become normal.

Constitutional reform can be very complicated. As a stopgap constitutional measure, the number of choices on the ballot paper could be reduced to two or three to curb the proliferation of small political parties. That would offer some of the advantages of the "first past the post" system where the political candidates who have the highest appeal to voters get the highest percentage of the votes and win. Those are usually the most able candidates. In contrast, the numerous choices in Ireland's voting help mediocre candidates to win.
No. Just no.
 

statsman

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
56,265
In rural Ireland and low income areas of cities, car insurance is becoming unaffordable thanks to generous court awards way out of line with the UK and other EU countries. As the government threatened, if the judiciary don't wake up to the impact on cost of living a referendum may be needed for curbing excessive car insurance awards and especially the plague of dishonest whiplash injury claims.

However, this issue is a minor detail compared to the need for a referendum to reform Ireland's extreme proportional representation voting which in the long run will make the country ungovernable with a proliferation of small squabbling political parties and partisan independent TDs. Revolving door governments like those in Italy and Belgium will become normal.

Constitutional reform can be very complicated. As a stopgap constitutional measure, the number of choices on the ballot paper could be reduced to two or three to curb the proliferation of small political parties. That would offer some of the advantages of the "first past the post" system where the political candidates who have the highest appeal to voters get the highest percentage of the votes and win. Those are usually the most able candidates. In contrast, the numerous choices in Ireland's voting help mediocre candidates to win.
Go have a little lie-down.
 

Buchaill Dana

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
7,604
We have high insurance costs because we have an illegal cartel operating as an insurance market. Also, perhaps whiplash claims are higher in Ireland because the cost of follow-up treatment is carried by the injured party, and not provided free by the national health service.

The rest of your post is borderline mental. Our voting system saves us from polemic politics and extreme governments.
Its amazing that he missed that. Almost as if he is obsessed with blaming the state for everything.
 

Orbit v2

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
11,710
That's a strange pair of concerns. You wouldn't be trying to shoe-horn an unpopular measure (changing our voting system) in with a popular one (fixing compo culture)

... by any chance?
 

effer

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Messages
2,194
Well the situation wouldnt exist without the state speicifying that vehicles on public roads must buy insurance from only "Irish" providers.
That's a good point. Why so? The insurance providers and the legal eagles are aided and abetted in robbing us. If there was one person who said as a single issue election candidate that they would work to sort out this scam I'm sure he she would be elected.
 

Half Nelson

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
21,733
Well the situation wouldnt exist without the state speicifying that vehicles on public roads must buy insurance from only "Irish" providers.
Therein lies the problem. The Free Market works only for governments and corporations. We were lied to.

At what about the promised end to VRT?
 

Roll_On

Well-known member
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
18,001
Well the situation wouldnt exist without the state speicifying that vehicles on public roads must buy insurance from only "Irish" providers.
Great point, we are part of a 'single market' yet we continue to get ripped off in banking, insurance and even mobile phone operators. Irish banks charge you for banking with them :rolleyes2: there should be no obsticles to having a caixa account for example. My mobile phone provider charges me for calling or texting a french phone, even though that phone is in Dublin :rolleyes2: it seems certain aspects of the market are protectionist.
 

__e621

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
312
Great point, we are part of a 'single market' yet we continue to get ripped off in banking, insurance and even mobile phone operators. Irish banks charge you for banking with them :rolleyes2: there should be no obsticles to having a caixa account for example. My mobile phone provider charges me for calling or texting a french phone, even though that phone is in Dublin :rolleyes2: it seems certain aspects of the market are protectionist.
I would suggest you get an N26 account for yourself, and ditch the bricks-and-mortar banks.

You are right though, there are huge sections of the EU's single market that do not function as either "single" or a "market". All of the "Four Freedoms" have exceptions - ask someone from Cyprus about that free movement of capital business.
 

Patslatt1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
3,790
Look at the UK's first past the post, which in theory produces stable single party government. The only problem is members of one party can be politically extremely far away from eachother, the UK Labour party for example is home to borderline Soviet style socialism and Centre Right populism. The results are anything but stable.

As for a referendum on car insurance, please stop, that's being a drama queen.
The government is a drama queen then?

A choice to vote for two or three candidates would still allow multiple political parties but without actively inviting the fragmentation of multiple parties and independents as under the present voting system of too many choices.
 

Patslatt1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
3,790
In both the UK and the US we see that having a two party system is vulnerable to entryist groups (Momentum, ERG, Tea Party) that can take a party to the extreme.

However, my real quibble is with the car insurance part. There is no way that anything so specific should be written into the constitution. We've had enough trouble with that in the past. Or is there a particular article you are looking to alter/remove in a more general way that would cater to your proposal.
Political factions have never dominated politics in the UK and the USA without mass appeal to the broad middle of voters as far as I know.

The constitutional independence of the judiciary may leave the government no choice but to hold a referendum to restrain extravagant judicial awards. A good example was the referendum on judicial pay.
 

Patslatt1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
3,790
We have high insurance costs because we have an illegal cartel operating as an insurance market. Also, perhaps whiplash claims are higher in Ireland because the cost of follow-up treatment is carried by the injured party, and not provided free by the national health service.

The rest of your post is borderline mental. Our voting system saves us from polemic politics and extreme governments.
The EU Commission investigators raided Irish insurance company offices but no charges were laid.Maybe the raid was just a shot across the bow.

The large number of insurers would make collusion on prices difficult.A legal way insurers have improved their prices is by failing to cooperate on creating anonymised databases providing customer information that would have facilitated more efficient and competitive pricing. Of course, the government is to blame for not insisting on this and for its past failure to express displeasure at extravagant judicial awards. I suppose the lawyers have close social connections with politicians.
 
Last edited:

Patslatt1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
3,790
That's a strange pair of concerns. You wouldn't be trying to shoe-horn an unpopular measure (changing our voting system) in with a popular one (fixing compo culture)

... by any chance?
The logic is that the government should prioritise major issues like fixing the dysfunctional voting system over merely important ones like car insurance in referendums. At present, the extreme PR voting system favours TDs with a partisan petty county councillor mentality instead of TDs whose function should be good governance of the state.
 
Last edited:

New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top