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A strong Europe in a world of uncertainties-leaked document

nixmix

Active member
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
224
Never ones to miss an opportunity from a crisis, foreign ministers of Germany and France have drawn up a document which highlights their wishes for even closer union post Brexit.

The document details how they see the EU taking control of all borders and immigrations policy, closer financial ties and possibly even limiting the rights of state to their own army.

The full document can be seen here: http://static.presspublica.pl/red/rp/pdf/DokumentUE.pdf

Articles here:
German, French ministers plan for 'strong Europe in uncertain world' | Reuters
https://www.rt.com/news/348615-france-germany-eu-reform/
New EU 'superstate plan

This is probably all just wishful thinking on the behalf of the foreign ministers but it does show the direction that the EU could be taking in the near future. Losing control of immigration policy and even subsuming control of armies are surely red line issues for many.

If they do push this document I can see even further disintegration of the EU. And you can add my vote to the IREXIT should we ever get a say, though no doubt they would make us vote again and again:)
 


Prester Jim

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
10,073
They have learned the wrong lessons from the Brexit, no-one or very few people want a closer union at this stage other then the bureaucrats and politicians who directly benefit. At a certain point in a democracy no matter how massive, there must be an attempt to find out what the people want. They would also want to take it hand and inform people in a timely fashion rather then leave it to opponents and the plutocratic media to "inform" them.
 

Mad as Fish

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
24,449
Never ones to miss an opportunity from a crisis, foreign ministers of Germany and France have drawn up a document which highlights their wishes for even closer union post Brexit.

The document details how they see the EU taking control of all borders and immigrations policy, closer financial ties and possibly even limiting the rights of state to their own army.

The full document can be seen here: http://static.presspublica.pl/red/rp/pdf/DokumentUE.pdf

Articles here:
German, French ministers plan for 'strong Europe in uncertain world' | Reuters
https://www.rt.com/news/348615-france-germany-eu-reform/
New EU 'superstate plan

This is probably all just wishful thinking on the behalf of the foreign ministers but it does show the direction that the EU could be taking in the near future. Losing control of immigration policy and even subsuming control of armies are surely red line issues for many.

If they do push this document I can see even further disintegration of the EU. And you can add my vote to the IREXIT should we ever get a say, though no doubt they would make us vote again and again:)
Nothing like getting a tanker full of petrol and spraying it on the flames.
 

Polly Ticks

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
3,349
I'm a bit worried that an ever closer Union will pose a threat to Irish neutrality.

Is that a reasonable concern?

Could the EU pose a threat to Irish neutrality?
 

saab900

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2014
Messages
1,112
Never ones to miss an opportunity from a crisis, foreign ministers of Germany and France have drawn up a document which highlights their wishes for even closer union post Brexit.

The document details how they see the EU taking control of all borders and immigrations policy, closer financial ties and possibly even limiting the rights of state to their own army.

The full document can be seen here: http://static.presspublica.pl/red/rp/pdf/DokumentUE.pdf

Articles here:
German, French ministers plan for 'strong Europe in uncertain world' | Reuters
https://www.rt.com/news/348615-france-germany-eu-reform/
New EU 'superstate plan

This is probably all just wishful thinking on the behalf of the foreign ministers but it does show the direction that the EU could be taking in the near future. Losing control of immigration policy and even subsuming control of armies are surely red line issues for many.

If they do push this document I can see even further disintegration of the EU. And you can add my vote to the IREXIT should we ever get a say, though no doubt they would make us vote again and again:)
That would be a great post of the document actually said any of the things you claim it said.
 

Eire1976

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
14,195
I'm a bit worried that an ever closer Union will pose a threat to Irish neutrality.

Is that a reasonable concern?

Could the EU pose a threat to Irish neutrality?
Forget neutrality, it poses a threat to the Irish way of life.
 

Dame_Enda

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Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
53,168
They are showing complete contempt for the will of the British electorate and by extension the very similar concerns in countries like the Netherlands and indeed France. I heard this document includes tax harmonisation.
 

FunkyBoogaloo

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
2,936
"Irreversible"

That's the key word in the policy document. These dangerous fools want to make it that no other member state will be allowed to leave. Ever.

Not without violence/bloodshed/civil disobedience anyway.

An odious joy.
 

Eire1976

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Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
14,195
They are showing complete contempt for the will of the British electorate and by extension the very similar concerns in countries like the Netherlands and indeed France. I heard this document includes tax harmonisation.
They clearly want total control, there wont be a point to having a national Government if we cannot control our own taxes and policy.
 

RodShaft

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2016
Messages
9,558
I'm a bit worried that an ever closer Union will pose a threat to Irish neutrality.

Is that a reasonable concern?

Could the EU pose a threat to Irish neutrality?

You are taking the p1ss now. We lost control of foreign policy years ago.
 

nixmix

Active member
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
224
They are showing complete contempt for the will of the British electorate and by extension the very similar concerns in countries like the Netherlands and indeed France. I heard this document includes tax harmonisation.
It does mention: 'France and Germany remain committed to bilateral initiatives to rapidly harmonise regulation and oversight as well as corporate tax schemes.'
 

VHF

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
2,963
I don't want to raise my chrildren under that suggested plan. This European project is dangerously speeding in the wrong direction.

This wasn't how it's supposed to have turned out for European citizens, including Ireland.

Worryingly I feel the Irish government are not robustly standing up for the citizens of Ireland. The direction needs altering and Brexit offers up a good opportunity for Ireland to argue our point that we desparately need bi-lateral trade agreements with Britain, or we'll be tapping for rescue funding yet again.
 

saab900

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2014
Messages
1,112
Did you read the document?
Yes.

Quote the bit that states that member states will be prevented from having their own armies, or the bit that member states won't be allowed have their own immigration controls.
 

saab900

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2014
Messages
1,112
It does mention: 'France and Germany remain committed to bilateral initiatives to rapidly harmonise regulation and oversight as well as corporate tax schemes.'
Do you know what the word "bilateral" means?
 

Toland

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
64,441
Website
www.aggressive-secularist.com
"Irreversible"

That's the key word in the policy document. These dangerous fools want to make it that no other member state will be allowed to leave. Ever.

Not without violence/bloodshed/civil disobedience anyway.

An odious joy.
They're just talking.

The EU members can and will say no.
 

daveL

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
19,593
Everyone wants a concerted and coordinated response to the migrant crisis - how is that supposed to happen without a closer union?

Everyone wants a concerted and coordinated response to the threat of terrorism - how is that supposed to happen without a closer union?

Everyone says the Euro can not survive and should never have been established without the fiscal and monetary union to underpin it - how is that supposed to happen without a closer union?

People expect a lot but never really follow through logically on what it is that needs to be done to do what they expect..
 

daveL

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Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
19,593
Yes.

Quote the bit that states that member states will be prevented from having their own armies, or the bit that member states won't be allowed have their own immigration controls.
Wouldn't that be a good thing? Wouldn't that have saved us from Angela Merkel's solo run "come one come all" invitation to Libyan refugees?
 

nixmix

Active member
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
224
Yes.

Quote the bit that states that member states will be prevented from having their own armies, or the bit that member states won't be allowed have their own immigration controls.
I did not say prevent but limit and subsumed.Read between the lines:
Within the framework of the EU, member states willing to establish permanent structured cooperation in the field of defence or to push ahead to launch opera-tions should be able to do so in a flexible manner. If needed, EU member states should consider establishing standing maritime forces or acquiring EU-owned capabilities in other key areas.

Germany and France are convinced that it is high time to work towards establishing truly integrated European asylum, refugee and migration policy.
Securing our external border is no longer exclusively a national task but also a common responsibility. We are determined that the EU should establish the world’s first multinational border and coast guard.
 

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