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A United Ireland Referendum: What if we vote no?


cmca1

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Joined
Mar 18, 2011
Messages
440
Border Poll: What if we vote no?

So all the talk has been about what a United Ireland will look like if a ‘Yes’ vote is achieved at a referendum. That's a good thing.

What if we vote no? A very real prospect. A very very real prospect, more real than Sinn Fein can imagine or dare to let on.

I believe in a United Ireland, absolutely, I’m 100% for it. I don’t believe a threat of violence from anyone should deter democracy from taking place.

But, what if we vote against a United Ireland?

Will nationalists be subject to loyalist/unionist triumphalism for another seven years at least until we can next hold a referendum? Or worse for another generation or more?

Will Stormont still be a divided Assembly of tosspots talking about but doing nothing for equality? Will we still have an over dominant public sector and no jobs or prospects for young graduates, whilst in Dublin Google is cherry picking for top modern jobs?

Will we still have parades? Will we still have ‘peace’ walls? Will we still have loyalist paramilitary groups calling for an end to violence? No Irish language Act? Religious and cultural discrimination? Will we still have a large silent minority afraid to speak up? Will every election be dominated by sectarian viewpoints with conversation on economic and social policy stuck into party manifestos as an afterthought?

Will loyalists still be shocked that we're in a peace process? 15 years and the DUP still hasn't told them.

Unionists, please make your case for the Union.
 


cmca1

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Mar 18, 2011
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440
Then we call a recount and Rodney Connor will lose by a handful of votes...
 

cmca1

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Mar 18, 2011
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440
I accept there are lots of questions by the way. But I think it's a serious point. What we be would be voting for?

More of the same? Because that hasn't worked.
 
C

Castle Ray

The referendum would be to stay in the UK with the present political arrangements. These are far from perfect but the referendum in question would not be to improve them it would be to stay or to leave them and enter the unknown with very real adverse effects to the wellbeing of the vast majority of people not only in NI but Eire also.
 
C

Castle Ray

Btw, who are you referring to when you say the "large silent minority afraid to speak up"?

Also, if there's peace what process is there remaining? Is the war not over? All sides say it is bar the lunatic fringe. The settlement has been made and imbedded. Most of the things you question aren't effected by a referendum vote either way.
 

cmca1

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Mar 18, 2011
Messages
440
What is the incentive for staying with the current circumstances?

The UK is a great country, but the Northern Irish part is far from the type of UK in the South-East of England. If a flag was lowered in a civil and sensible town in England, the only people who might make a small hiccup of trouble would be the EDL or the BNP. Here it is the standard we have come to expect unfortunately.

You mention that there would be adverse effects to the wellbeing of the vast majority in Ireland, what is the evidence of that to date and if so how would it be any different to the vast majority of us currently facing hardship whilst part of the island is being administered by the British and the other part by the Germans? Furthermore, look at the violence on the streets every year in NI - they are people whose wellbeing is not a priority of the Westminster government.

Any vote on a United Ireland would be a vote for whether or not we want partition to remain. It is a rethink of NI as a constituent nation of the UK. In doing this, we should ask ourselves if it has worked up until now and if not, what we can do about it if (a) we stay in the UK and (b) if we join the Irish Republic.

If those who are pro-UI are making the case for improvements in a United Ireland, then it is not acceptable for those who are pro-UK to sit back and think that the status-quo is good enough nearly 100 years after they argued that we'd be better off in the UK.
 
Last edited:

cmca1

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Mar 18, 2011
Messages
440
Btw, who are you referring to when you say the "large silent minority afraid to speak up"?

Also, if there's peace what process is there remaining? Is the war not over? All sides say it is bar the lunatic fringe. The settlement has been made and imbedded. Most of the things you question aren't effected by a referendum vote either way.
The vast majority of people right now are not entrenched by the level of bigotry that we've seen from so called republicans and loyalists. Most are right-thinking, reasonable who do not care about the colour of the flag. Yet amidst all this violence, they are voiceless whilst a few hundred thugs bring our lives to a standstill, attack our politicians and police and create visible economic hardship businesses, employers and employees.

A process of moving on and reconciling is what exists. Peace exists, yet we still go to our own schools, we still live in our own towns, we don't have parties which stand on the basis of economic and social policy, we dont have accountability of our elected politicians, some people still don't there is peace.


Those who part-take in violence also have one thing in common - they don't think there is peace, yet they reflect a minority view and believe they can uphold the rest of our society in the way they have the last few weeks.

In all of this and all I have mentioned in the OP, what are unionists doing to convince those of a pro-UI stance or other view, that Northern Ireland is working?
 
C

Castle Ray

What is the incentive for staying with the current circumstances?

The UK is a great country, but the Northern Irish part is far from the UK of the South-East of England. If a flag was lowered in a civil and sensible town in England, the only people who might make a small hiccup of trouble would be the EDL or the BNP. Here it is the standard we have come to expect unfortunately.

You mention that there would be adverse effects to the wellbeing of the vast majority in Ireland, what is the evidence of that to date and if so how would it be any different to the vast majority of us currently facing hardship whilst part of the island is being administered by the British and the other part by the Germans? Furthermore, look at the violence on the streets every year in NI - they are people whose wellbeing is not a priority of the Westminster government.

Any vote on a United Ireland would be a vote for whether or not we want partition to remain. It is a rethink of NI as a constituent nation of the UK. In doing this, we should ask ourselves if it has worked up until now and if not, what we can do about it if (a) we stay in the UK and (b) if we join the Irish Republic.

If those who are pro-UI are making the case for improvements in a United Ireland, then it is not acceptable for those who are pro-UK to sit back and think that the status-quo is good enough nearly 100 years after they argued that we'd be better off in the UK.
There are plenty of incentives to remain in the UK. The deficit in NI would cripple Eire and any new state would be instantly bankrupt. But I'm sure you know this. The problem is that improvements are hard to make due to current tribal parties who dominate refusing to do so. Leaving the UK does not solve that.
 

cmca1

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Mar 18, 2011
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A very strange OP indeed Ray



The naivety of this question - does anybody really think that a Vote leading to unification and poof! The 'peace' walls would would go and the people on either side of them would gather round, hold hands and sing Kumbaya?
That is exactly what I was thinking...yeahhhhh.

No, I do not believe peace walls will disappear.

But what are we doing to remove them now? A lot goes on in communities to unite people, but we're not helped by the language and behaviour of our politicians.

What normal society advocates building walls between neighbourhoods?
 

Cruimh

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That is exactly what I was thinking...yeahhhhh.

No, I do not believe peace walls will disappear.

But what are we doing to remove them now? A lot goes on in communities to unite people, but we're not helped by the language and behaviour of our politicians.

What normal society advocates building walls between neighbourhoods?
We aren't a normal society.

If you want to ease tensions - lobby SF and the SDLP to stop poop stirring.
 
C

Castle Ray

The vast majority of people right now are not entrenched by the level of bigotry that we've seen from so called republicans and loyalists. Most are right-thinking, reasonable who do not care about the colour of the flag. Yet amidst all this violence, they are voiceless whilst a few hundred thugs bring our lives to a standstill, attack our politicians and police and create visible economic hardship businesses, employers and employees.

A process of moving on and reconciling is what exists. Peace exists, yet we still go to our own schools, we still live in our own towns, we don't have parties which stand on the basis of economic and social policy, we dont have accountability of our elected politicians, some people still don't there is peace.


Those who part-take in violence also have one thing in common - they don't think there is peace, yet they reflect a minority view and believe they can uphold the rest of our society in the way they have the last few weeks.

In all of this and all I have mentioned in the OP, what are unionists doing to convince those of a pro-UI stance or other view, that Northern Ireland is working?
NI is working but it isn't working fast enough. That's a problem no doubt. Look where we were and where we are now.But to end the stalemate-esque politics though would require new thinking and buy-in. That won't happen soon because the decisions are sectarian by sectarian parties. The electorate will catch on and new parties will emerge.
 

cmca1

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There are plenty of incentives to remain in the UK. The deficit in NI would cripple Eire and any new state would be instantly bankrupt. But I'm sure you know this. The problem is that improvements are hard to make due to current tribal parties who dominate refusing to do so. Leaving the UK does not solve that.
Those who believe in a UI are always going to exist, as are unionists. Unionists however like to brand themselves as pro-union parties. Before an election even occurs, we have mainstream parties focusing their policies on keeping republicans out of government. What message is that to those you represent and those you are trying to convince? Why haven't they aligned to mainstream parties to promote further integration with the UK?

The duty to convince nationalists of the benefit of us staying in the UK lies with unionist parties. There are a lot of would-be nationalists who want a United Ireland in their hearts but know in their minds that it doesn't suit them, at least not now. They're never going to vote DUP or UUP.

The point I am making is, if we vote to stay in the UK, shouldn't we use that as a platform to improve what we have?

NI as part of the Republic or within the UK needs to work for the people, either way.
 

Legolas

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I think people here are fed up with hearing about the constitutional situation. And want to get on with life , thankfully for Unionists the current status quo is with the UK and more and more people don't see themselves as Irish. This is the biggest enemy for the likes of SF. I think any vote for the next 30 years is a CERT no. I believe there is no demand. All this nonsense for SF's current stunt to 'set a date' is baloney. Things like this and restricting the flag at city hall is all trying to convince their more better elements they are getting somewhere.

Nobody is being 'dominated' here. But if you think 'Sectarianism and division' will be fixed by a United Ireland you are well of the Mark. Everybody knows it's a fantasy now, and the majority of people here are British/ Identify with the NI state.
 

Cruimh

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I think people here are fed up with hearing about the constitutional situation. And want to get on with life , thankfully for Unionists the current status quo is with the UK and more and more people don't see themselves as Irish. This is the biggest enemy for the likes of SF. I think any vote for the next 30 years is a CERT no. I believe there is no demand. All this nonsense for SF's current stunt to 'set a date' is baloney.
Indeed - and the single biggest thing that SF and the SDLP could do to ease tensions would be to come right out and say that they acknowledge that there is no chance of a Yes vote for Unification for at least a generation and pledge themselves to work for a successful NI.
 

General Urko

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Oct 24, 2012
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The key thing is that with 1 in 4 Catholics in Nordieland supporting the Union and another 1 in 4 not giving a fiddlers, there's no possibility of getting a United Ireland /Federal State!
I am a Southerner and an Irishman and European to the very core of my being, but I would not vote for a United Ireland or a United Europe!
I genuinely can't fathom SFs desire for a border pole at this stage, it will be hammered out of sight although knowing this a few dedickated Unionist Taigs may support it , to wangle more benefits out of her majesty and artificially up the support for a United Ireland! They're cute, ya know!:cool:
 

belfast1981

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Aug 23, 2012
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A United Ireland Referendum: What if we vote no? - A simple answer. NI stays part of the UK.
 

cmca1

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We aren't a normal society.

If you want to ease tensions - lobby SF and the SDLP to stop poop stirring.
What has partition done to make us a normal society? Nothing. It set us up into two camps. One side said "Never, never, never" and entrenched themselves in this view for decades. The other side campaigned for change, one via a peaceful approach the other via violence. We hadn't a hope. No democratic decision was taken to put the border there in the first place.

Nearly 100 years on, if we have moved on in anyway, a democratic vote should be taken and it should be made clear to whatever minority group of thugs from whatever side of the community, that the outcome has to be accepted. In a United Ireland if that is achieved, all paramilitary groups of all shades will have no justification for their actions.

They don't have any justifications for their action now, but in the current set up that we've had, splinter republican groups claim to have a justification for their violence and loyalist paramilitaries take the high ground when telling young protestors to stop being violent.

What should the SDLP and Sinn Fein stop doing in your opinion?
 

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