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ABBA lead the way - Religion and Schools don't mix


Verhofstadt

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I feel the need to share this article.. not just because it is a well argued piece on the issue of state funding of religious schools and need to take religion out of schools.. but the fact, which I only noticed after reading that the author is none other the Bjorn from ABBA.. is there no end to the man's talents!

It is important to guarantee people the right to believe whatever they wish. But people should be free to choose their own ideology or belief system when they have become old enough to think for themselves.


Nobody should have to form an opinion on matters of such weight before they are ready to size up the arguments. Above all, children should be kept away from anything that bears even the slightest whiff of indoctrination. In fact, freedom from indoctrination ought to be a basic human right for all children.
Religion and schools don't mix | Björn Ulvaeus | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk



P.S. no jokes about being "Bjorn again" allowed on the thread.
 


biteback

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It is an interesting article and the issue at hand is definitely controversial. I can see the merit of his argument, but if children had a legally supported human right of freedom of indoctrination then that would surely prevent parents from having their children baptised or whatever?

And shouldn't parents have the right to make decisions for their children and the way in which they should be brought up?

And in fairness isn't a lot of religion in schools purely tokenism now, especially in secondary schools?

I haven't thought about this issue enough or listened to the arguments to have developed a view, but it is interesting.
 

Factorem

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Why are people insisting on forcing a one-size-fits-all education policy on people when clearly they don't want it?
 

LeftOfCentre

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Catholicism was forced on me as a child . . . and I agree that religion should be removed from school except to educate children about their various religious options/or othweise.

Conservative, declining religions, need to indoctrinate people as early as possible or they will cease to exist, so I understand their antipathy to secular schools ..... but that doesn't mean it's not a good thing for our society.

What is telling in this debate is the insecurity of the conservative religions ,,,,, they are afraid (probably correctly) that no one will choose their religion if not forced (socially) to do so.
 

Factorem

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Catholicism was forced on me as a child . . . and I agree that religion should be removed from school except to educate children about their various religious options/or othweise.
If your parents faith is strong, it is perfectly reasonable for them to wish the same opportunities on their children. The parents are in the best position to decide how their children will be educated, not the most popular politician of the day who so happens to have extreme leftist leanings, bordering on toppling over.
 

eoinod

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I went to a school run by Catholic Priests for 14 years in total and while I am still Catholic the vast majority of my schoolmates are now agnostic, atheistic and I think one of my classmates is now buddhist (not to mention the two hindus in my year...).

Anyway my point is that a religious run school does not necessarily mean religious doctrination and in my experience most certainly did not. Religion class became a discussion of different faiths and opened our eyes to many great philosophers and thinkers rather than indoctrination into the Catholic Church.
 

LeftOfCentre

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If your parents faith is strong, it is perfectly reasonable for them to wish the same opportunities on their children. The parents are in the best position to decide how their children will be educated, not the most popular politician of the day who so happens to have extreme leftist leanings, bordering on toppling over.
The church controls schools in Ireland in a systematic way... most parents have no option but to send their children to a school run by a repressed sinister organisation, namely the catholic church. (or more accurately, by an order connected to the church).

this situation sits well with repressed conservative adults,,,,, but is unhealthy for society.
 

Factorem

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The church controls schools in Ireland in a systematic way... most parents have no option but to send their children to a school run by a repressed sinister organisation, namely the catholic church. (or more accurately, by an order connected to the church).

this situation sits well with repressed conservative adults,,,,, but is unhealthy for society.
The schooling system in Ireland quite obviously hasn't kept up with the rapid changes in Irish society over the last 15 years. To blame the Church for this imbalance is not only unfair, but totally arrogant and ignorant.
 

Factorem

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I went to a school run by Catholic Priests for 14 years in total and while I am still Catholic the vast majority of my schoolmates are now agnostic, atheistic and I think one of my classmates is now buddhist (not to mention the two hindus in my year...).

Anyway my point is that a religious run school does not necessarily mean religious doctrination and in my experience most certainly did not. Religion class became a discussion of different faiths and opened our eyes to many great philosophers and thinkers rather than indoctrination into the Catholic Church.
I blame Vatican II myself. That and the appalling catechises, which, in my opinion, the Irish clergy have a lot to answer for.
 

LeftOfCentre

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The schooling system in Ireland quite obviously hasn't kept up with the rapid changes in Irish society over the last 15 years. To blame the Church for this imbalance is not only unfair, but totally arrogant and ignorant.
If you re read my post you will see no blame attached to any organisation ,,,, just a statement regarding the current set up.

Up until recently the church has actively (quietly) lobbied for the status quo .... thankfully, their moral authority has been reduced to almost zero in the state,,,, and we can finally demote the organisation to the far off fringe where it belongs.
 

eoinod

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I blame Vatican II myself. That and the appalling catechises, which, in my opinion, the Irish clergy have a lot to answer for.
What do you blame Vatican II for?

Personally I have always thought that it greatly liberalised the church but then I was not alive when it took place so I am not a great one to judge.
 

Factorem

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What do you blame Vatican II for?

Personally I have always thought that it greatly liberalised the church but then I was not alive when it took place so I am not a great one to judge.
Vatican II took much of the reverence and mystery out of the Mass. Why they forcibly removed the tridentine tradition is beyond me.

This idea that Vatican II "liberalised" the Church has run its course. It's been shown up to be a failure and the current Pope is on a mission to undo the damage done.
 

LeftOfCentre

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we need some Scientology schools to set up In Ireland , , , , that will wake people up to the madness of allowing religion & education to mix.
 

Factorem

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we need some Scientology schools to set up In Ireland , , , , that will wake people up to the madness of allowing religion & education to mix.
And what right have you got to stop the parents from doing this Mr Extreme Left?
 

LeftOfCentre

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It would fall under children's rights.

Enforcing spurious belief systems on children is akin to child abuse IMHO.
 

Factorem

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It would fall under children's rights.

Enforcing spurious belief systems on children is akin to child abuse IMHO.
instead you prefer to impose the dogma of secularism and forcibly shut down all "religious" schools.
 

LeftOfCentre

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instead you prefer to impose the dogma of secularism and forcibly shut down all "religious" schools.
NO NO ... THE DOGMA of learning about all religions before being forced into a religion.

Of course, if this was the norm,,,,, the ratzinger led organisation with its spurious beliefs would soon be non existent.
So I understand catholic antipathy to such a rational set up.
 

LeftOfCentre

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