Abortion - The Male Perspective

Aquilius

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8 out of 10 Irish men pay zero in maintenance.
Can you back this figure up with a link that shows actual proof that 8 out of 10 Irish men pay no maintenance.

Can you then also tell me how many of that suggested 80% figure of single mothers who receive no maintenance from the father of their children are actually illegally living with the father whilst defrauding the welfare.

Can you then after doing that give me a figure on how many single mothers that intentionally don't pursue the father for maintenance as to do so would effect their welfare income and also their place on their Local Authority Housing List.

The figures don't always show the truth, don't be so naive!
 


Aquilius

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Well he made a serious attempt at it. It wasn't an experiment in economics that led him to claim he had no bank account as Irish Minister for Finance and yet have his girlfriend hopping on and off Aer Lingus to make deposits for him in a Manchester deposit account.
Is there concrete proof of such or is this all circumstantial?
 

Gin Soaked

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There needs to be more provision and tougher laws to encourage women (also but rarely men) in such situations the courage to leave them.
Actually, some of these guys just need a kick up the ar$e with the boot of decency. You almost want to put them on a programme to rehab them into proper manhood.
 

good dog

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Well when I was in my first job in Ireland there was a proposal to end the practice of a security van delivering large sums of cash for wages. For obvious security reasons.

The union vehemently opposed payment by direct transfer into the men's bank accounts. I was puzzled by this as I couldn't figure out why they were objecting so strongly to this move as it cost them nothing and was secure.

Trying to figure it out I wondered aloud to one of the old hands around the place and he told me out of the side of his mouth that most of the men preferred cash in their hand with a payslip because they weren't telling the missus how much they actually earned and were generally playing it down so they would remove their beer budget from the wage packet before handing over the housekeeping at home.

And that was in the 1980s.
Oh. So they refused to give their IBAN and BIC code is it? Why didn't they use cheques as was very very common in the 80's?
 

Gin Soaked

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Oh. So they refused to give their IBAN and BIC code is it? Why didn't they use cheques as was very very common in the 80's?
A cheque would still be visible on the bank statement. Not all shops would cash a weeks wages. I remember my mum used to use Quinnsworth as a defacto ATM . She'd write them a cheque for the weekly shop plus about 50 punt for walking around money. But a full weeks wages would be a stretch.
 

Aquilius

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Actually, some of these guys just need a kick up the ar$e with the boot of decency. You almost want to put them on a programme to rehab them into proper manhood.
I don't want to invest any money in scum. I suggested helping the women (sometimes men) that are in volatile relationships to leave them and see the light, give them their confidence back and show them they can be independent and do not need to rely on or live in fear of their abusive partner.
 

making waves

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Can you back this figure up with a link that shows actual proof that 8 out of 10 Irish men pay no maintenance.
The last info I could find was from 2005 in a report in the Independent - it stated that 9,600 fathers were paying maintenance out of 80,000 women heading one parent families. There is no indication that this number has changed since.

One man was jailed in 2015 for non-payment of maintenance - the same year 10,000 people were jailed for not paying a court fine.
 

Emily Davison

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The last info I could find was from 2005 in a report in the Independent - it stated that 9,600 fathers were paying maintenance out of 80,000 women heading one parent families. There is no indication that this number has changed since.

One man was jailed in 2015 for non-payment of maintenance - the same year 10,000 people were jailed for not paying a court fine.
I heard the figure 8 out of 10 on RTE radio in the last two weeks. Though it might have been Newstalk. It was a discussion about social welfare and poverty and came up in the context of that. It was just such an abysmal figure I remember thinking about it at the time. And it struck with me.
 

Aquilius

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The last info I could find was from 2005 in a report in the Independent - it stated that 9,600 fathers were paying maintenance out of 80,000 women heading one parent families. There is no indication that this number has changed since.

One man was jailed in 2015 for non-payment of maintenance - the same year 10,000 people were jailed for not paying a court fine.
Okay so we're going off information from 12/13 years ago - lets just go with it anyway and agree that there is no reason to believe that the ratio has changed. Can you now answer my other questions?

Of the c.70,000 one-parent family households headed by women in receipt of no maintenance, how many are actually illegally residing with the father of their children and defrauding the welfare system?

Can you then after doing that give me a figure on how many single mothers that intentionally don't pursue the father for maintenance as to do so would effect their welfare income and also their place on their Local Authority Housing List.

The figures don't always show the truth, don't be so naive!
 

making waves

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Okay so we're going off information from 12/13 years ago - lets just go with it anyway and agree that there is no reason to believe that the ratio has changed. Can you now answer my other questions?

Of the c.70,000 one-parent family households headed by women in receipt of no maintenance, how many are actually illegally residing with the father of their children and defrauding the welfare system?
I am not aware of any - are you?

Can you then after doing that give me a figure on how many single mothers that intentionally don't pursue the father for maintenance as to do so would effect their welfare income and also their place on their Local Authority Housing List.
I am not aware of any - are you?

The figures don't always show the truth, don't be so naive!
True - the figure is probably an over-estimate of maintenance because the Irish legal system (and Irish law) makes it extremely difficult for a woman to pursue a man through the courts for maintenance.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Oh. So they refused to give their IBAN and BIC code is it? Why didn't they use cheques as was very very common in the 80's?
They didn't want cheques going home either. Basically what they wanted was cash in an envelope so that they could extract the beer budget on the way home and the missus would have to take their word that they were handing up the majority of the wage. Most of them weren't and liked to keep the missus in the dark about how much they were earnng.
 

Aquilius

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I am not aware of any - are you?


I am not aware of any - are you?


True - the figure is probably an over-estimate of maintenance because the Irish legal system (and Irish law) makes it extremely difficult for a woman to pursue a man through the courts for maintenance.
There are many! In certain areas you can find swathes of women claiming one-parent family and living with their partners.

Once again, there are many yes!

Nonsense! Its quite straight forward and simple to apply for and receive maintenance through the courts. If anything the figures are an over exaggeration of welfare fraud and deliberate ignorance of pursuing maintenance.
 

making waves

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There are many! In certain areas you can find swathes of women claiming one-parent family and living with their partners.

Once again, there are many yes!
Can you produce any statistics to back up your anecdote?

Nonsense! Its quite straight forward and simple to apply for and receive maintenance through the courts. If anything the figures are an over exaggeration of welfare fraud and deliberate ignorance of pursuing maintenance.
Maintenance defaulters: 'We have no legal remedies for parents who refuse to pay'
 

Aquilius

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I'm sure I could if I went digging over several pieces of data. For concrete proof of such though it would be next to impossible due to the fact that nobody is going to willingly admit that they are defrauding the welfare system.

The Journal isn't the most reliable source of news to be honest. In my own experience of hearing on maintenance cases it is relatively easy to instruct an individual to pay maintenance. I wasn't talking on the issue of refusal to pay, that however is a different matter and is something that needs to be seriously looked at.
 

bob3344

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Can you produce any statistics to back up your anecdote?
Yeah, maybe the Dept of Social Welfare has a list of people who they know are defrauding them but they have decided to keep paying anyway.

You'd have to be insane or a recent immigrant from Mars not to know this is a massive problem.
 


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