Abortion to become legal in the Six Counties?

Kilsally

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pro-choice said:
3. As "ordinary politics" emerge in the North people will start to look for the evidence base to decide on these issues rather than a sectarian head count. So for example the polical parties will have to response to evidence that liberalising abortion has no effective on the abortion rate (see the stats on Swizterland and The Netherlands) or that more effective ways to reduce the abortion rate is to focus on access to sex education (not a compulsory subject in the UK) and access to contraception (see the huge reduction in the Russian abortion rate when contraception was improved).

4. Of course this issue will be more difficult for those who wish to maintain the union with Britain. They must either accept that the laws of the UK apply to them if they don't think the UK laws apply to them - Well that makes them ........... I'm not sure - northern Ireland nationalists, free staters, or confused.
3. liberalising of the abortion laws...just look at the UK mainland and the HUGE increases in abortions and teenage preganancies.

4. why will it be more difficult - it makes us devolutionists, Scotland has had different laws ALWAYS, NI has many different laws to the England and Wales.
 


Kilsally

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Slartibuckfast said:
Kilsally said:
...as to legislative unity with the UK, what has that got to do with Unionism?
Fecking mad. Mad. Ye's are all mad. :lol:
The UK is a Union not a single entity, its not the Borg `you will be assimilated`

The age of consent in NI is 17 compared to 16 in the rest of the UK
 

pro-choice

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Kilsally said:
pro-choice said:
During the troubles while the rest of the world was having political discussions on the status of women in society, gay rights and the separation of religion and the state etc. the political parties were focused on the political status of Northern Ireland.

All the political parties in the North are now going to have to face these issues. The DUP seems to be struggling the most but to a lessor extent so are the other parties.

Because the DUP can no longer use Catholics as scapegoats they are looking around for others (gays, women with crisis pregancies) to focus on. I think they realise that this is not sustainable and are a bit embarassed by some of their leaders saying what they really think.

When the North does start to have a proper and informed debate on abortion - the following make things difficult for the Political Parties.

1. Access to Abortion is increasing seen as a human rights issue in certain circumstances. Westminister won't let the unionists way with human rights abuses again. It cost them too much the last time.

2. For Sinn Fein the abortion issue could be difficult because their liberal/left/urban vote in South is largely pro-choice.

3. As "ordinary politics" emerge in the North people will start to look for the evidence base to decide on these issues rather than a sectarian head count. So for example the polical parties will have to response to evidence that liberalising abortion has no effective on the abortion rate (see the stats on Swizterland and The Netherlands) or that more effective ways to reduce the abortion rate is to focus on access to sex education (not a compulsory subject in the UK) and access to contraception (see the huge reduction in the Russian abortion rate when contraception was improved).

4. Of course this issue will be more difficult for those who wish to maintain the union with Britain. They must either accept that the laws of the UK apply to them if they don't think the UK laws apply to them - Well that makes them ........... I'm not sure - northern Ireland nationalists, free staters, or confused.
erm whats your point? the DUP is in agreement with the Roman Catholic church on abortion, homosexuality etc etc.
The DUP wants to pick and choose when UK laws to apply to the North. So sometimes it wants to be part of the union - therefore a unionist party. But sometimes it wants the North to be outside the laws of the union - so sometimes the DUP wants to be a ............ party (I don't know you tell me)
 

Kilsally

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pro-choice said:
The DUP wants to pick and choose when UK laws to apply to the North. So sometimes it wants to be part of the union - therefore a unionist party. But sometimes it wants the North to be outside the laws of the union - so sometimes the DUP wants to be a ............ party (I don't know you tell me)

The DUP is and always has been a devolutionist party and there is no such thing as UK laws, each jurisdiction has its own laws but sometimes a law is passed at Westminster and made to apply to all four jurisdictions at the same time, other times it only applies to certain jurisdiction. Scotland has its own legal system and always has, as does NI..Wales as a `principality` is largely tied to England but under devolution has more scope for divergance.
 

pro-choice

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Kilsally said:
3. liberalising of the abortion laws...just look at the UK mainland and the HUGE increases in abortions and teenage preganancies.

4. why will it be more difficult - it makes us devolutionists, Scotland has had different laws ALWAYS, NI has many different laws to the England and Wales.
Huge increases???? The teenage pregnancy rate (conception rate)in the UK has reduced every year since 1998. It has reduced by about 10% in the last 10 years. And over 40% per cent in some areas. If you want to know why this is happening consult the teenage pregnancy unit in the UK - They'll tell you about better sex education and access to contraception.

If you want to bring the abortion rate down focus on improving access to contraception - there is some evidence that this what is happening in the South.

Of course abortion is not one the issues devolved to Stormont or the Scottish Parliament.
 

zenarchist

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Kilsally said:
múscailte said:
Dawn Purvis isn't on board so it's hardly all the politicians. Purvis is the only honest Unionist on this issue as she actually wants the legislative unity with the UK that you all pay lipservice to when it suits you. The rest of you just expose the moral bankruptcy of your position.
erm thats one MLA our of 108...as to legislative unity with the UK, what has that got to do with Unionism? THe Unionist parties support devolution which invariably invlvoes regional differences...the legal system in Scotland is entirely different to England, Wales and NI.
Abortion through the NHS is available as a right in Britain but not in the OSC, the PUP want integration of this right with Britain as part of what you call the UK. Tell the truth, you and the majority of Unionists are closer to the rest of Ireland on this issue. You need to stop looking across the sea and unite with your fellows on this island.
 

mairteenpak

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Kilsally said:
mairteenpak said:
More Nationalists will seek abortions than unionists.

The DUP have not coped this as yet, it could be their last hope.
why will more nationalists seek abortions than unionists? secondly so what, it is a moral issue based on scriptures around which all the politicians and churches are united.
Because more Nationalists will get pregnant.

How is it a moral issue based on scriptures?

Is there no morality without Scriptures?
 

ArtyQueing

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mairteenpak said:
Kilsally said:
mairteenpak said:
More Nationalists will seek abortions than unionists.

The DUP have not coped this as yet, it could be their last hope.
why will more nationalists seek abortions than unionists? secondly so what, it is a moral issue based on scriptures around which all the politicians and churches are united.
Because more Nationalists will get pregnant.

How is it a moral issue based on scriptures?

Is there no morality without Scriptures?
How do you come to the conclusion that if more Nationalists (than Unionists I presume) get pregnant that it necessarily follows that more nationalists will murder the child?
 

Kilsally

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Kilsally
ArtyQueing said:
mairteenpak said:
Kilsally said:
mairteenpak said:
More Nationalists will seek abortions than unionists.

The DUP have not coped this as yet, it could be their last hope.
why will more nationalists seek abortions than unionists? secondly so what, it is a moral issue based on scriptures around which all the politicians and churches are united.
Because more Nationalists will get pregnant.

How is it a moral issue based on scriptures?

Is there no morality without Scriptures?
How do you come to the conclusion that if more Nationalists (than Unionists I presume) get pregnant that it necessarily follows that more nationalists will murder the child?
stupid argument

moral issue based on the sanctity of life which comes from the scriptures...that is why all the churches oppose abortion.

and no morals come from God`s law, man left to himself is bad and sinful.
 

Kilsally

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Kilsally
pro-choice said:
Kilsally said:
3. liberalising of the abortion laws...just look at the UK mainland and the HUGE increases in abortions and teenage preganancies.

4. why will it be more difficult - it makes us devolutionists, Scotland has had different laws ALWAYS, NI has many different laws to the England and Wales.
Huge increases???? The teenage pregnancy rate (conception rate)in the UK has reduced every year since 1998. It has reduced by about 10% in the last 10 years. And over 40% per cent in some areas. If you want to know why this is happening consult the teenage pregnancy unit in the UK - They'll tell you about better sex education and access to contraception.

If you want to bring the abortion rate down focus on improving access to contraception - there is some evidence that this what is happening in the South.

Of course abortion is not one the issues devolved to Stormont or the Scottish Parliament.
mainland UK has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe..it went through the roof since the 60`s and secularisation, and all the sexualisation of the media infiltrating youth culture.

July 08
`The number of abortions in the UK is rising across all age groups. The rise for teenagers comes at the same time as teenage pregnancy rates are falling, though we’re still the highest in Europe. This suggests that teens are getting better access to abortion services, which is to be welcomed, given the impact births to teenage mothers, 90% of which are unplanned, have on the life chances of them and their children.`

Aug 1st 2008
`Though a decreasing figure since 1998, the UK still has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Western Europe.

The adverse outcomes associated with teenage pregnancy include miscarriage, premature birth and babies that are born small for gestational age or have low birth weight. Teenage mothers have higher rates of sexually transmitted infections, alcohol or substance abuse, smoking and poor nutrition. Teenage mothers are also found to suffer from higher rates of postnatal depression.`
 

MartinP

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múscailte said:
I hope that Abbott's proposal is successful as this will put Unionists in a tricky position. They maintain that the OSC is a part of the UK so therefore the same rights to abortion on the NHS should exist. This could force a whole new attitude towards the concept of unification with one of the one EU state where abortion is least likely to ever be legalised.
I've been thinking/saying this for a while. It would be interesting to see, if it were forced through by Westminster, where the loyalties of the Unionist people would lie - within a union with what they must consider to be a morally corrupt society (Britain), or with protecting the lives of the children (and ultimately siding with the opinions of Irish people on the issue).

pro-choice said:
If you want to bring the abortion rate down focus on improving access to contraception
That coupled with banning abortion and I think you might be on to something.
 

Kilsally

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pro-choice said:
Of course abortion is not one the issues devolved to Stormont or the Scottish Parliament.
actually health is a devolved issue to Stormont...so Westminster legislation would be stomping on Stormonts toes and Stormont could seek to change the law again...the DUP have already said as much and stated if it was passed at Westminster against the wishes of the overwhelming majority of people in NI then it would be a constitutional conundrum in the face of devolution.
 

pro-choice

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MartinP said:
pro-choice said:
If you want to bring the abortion rate down focus on improving access to contraception
That coupled with banning abortion and I think you might be on to something.
No that's not the case. Some of the countries with greatest abortion rates ban abortion. See Nigeria for example.

And of course the countries with very liberal abortion laws (the Netherlands) have very low abortion rates.
 

pro-choice

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MartinP said:
I don't see how a blanket ban in Britain, for example, would increase the rate of abortion.
We were discussing effectives ways to reduce the abortion rate.

But stopping newspaper adverts and taking students to court and outlawing pregnancy counselling centres did nothing to reduce the abortion rate in ireland in fact it increased during those years.
 

CelticAtheist

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The birthrate always goes like that in developed countries, regardless of abortion.
It's basic Junior Cert population geography.....
 

Rahood

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How stupid of me to jump into the third page of all this and expext to find some rational thoughts.........


If a woman does not want to give birth to a bastard just who are we to tell her otherwise.
 


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