Adolf Hitler: the IRA's part in his downfall:

pogo

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If a thousand members of the security services were killed this would be only one third of the total casualties of the conflict.

A better question might be why the IRA killed more Protestants in sectarian killings than because they were paramilitaries.

Or why they killed more Republican than loyalist paramilitaries?

Fairly obviously the bomb was planted in the Shankill fish shop for sectarian reasons, and had little or nothing to do with 'getting the Brits out of Ireland', (unless your definition of 'Brits' includes apolitical Prods buying fish).
 


BCB

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pogo said:
A better question might be why the IRA killed more Protestants in sectarian killings than because they were paramilitaries.

Or why they killed more Republican than loyalist paramilitaries?

Fairly obviously the bomb was planted in the Shankill fish shop for sectarian reasons, and had little or nothing to do with 'getting the Brits out of Ireland', (unless your definition of 'Brits' includes apolitical Prods buying fish).
Don't talk rubbish,that bomb was designed to eliminate the leadership of the UDA/UFF who are amongst the most vicious sectarian murderers in the North Of Ireland.It is widely believed Johnny Adair was one of the targets..It exploded prematurely tragically killing an IRA Volunteer and innocent Protestants.The sectarian UDA/UFF, UVF,LVF,RHC,etc have indiscriminatly tortured and murdered innocent Catholics for decades.

Never has the IRA set out to kill any innocent Protestants,to say otherwise is riducalous.Loyalist terrorists assisted by the British state have for decades murdered Catholics without remorse and if there was still a war happening right now would no doubt be doing the same.
 

pogo

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BCB said:
Never has the IRA set out to kill any innocent Protestants,to say otherwise is riducalous.
The Sutton database of deaths lists 134 sectarian murders attributed to the IRA.

(A gross underestimate).
 

duff

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pogo said:
BCB said:
Never has the IRA set out to kill any innocent Protestants,to say otherwise is riducalous.
The Sutton database of deaths lists 134 sectarian murders attributed to the IRA.

(A gross underestimate).
oh yes the gospel of sutton :roll:
 

Risteard

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pogo said:
In that case please explain this statement made in 1940 by the IRA command:

If German forces should land in Ireland, they will land as friends and liberators of the Irish people.
It's self-explanatory. They were asked to come as liberators - not as occupiers. Look up the word "Quisling" if you don't understand its meaning.
 

Risteard

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pogo said:
The Sutton database of deaths lists 134 sectarian murders attributed to the IRA.
SARAF is not the IRA. As for others, you might wish to look deeper into them before deciding that they were "sectarian".
 

Risteard

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BCB said:
if there was still a war happening right now
There is BCB. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the full freedom of Ireland hasn't come about within the past few minutes.
 

BCB

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Risteard said:
BCB said:
if there was still a war happening right now
There is BCB. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the full freedom of Ireland hasn't come about within the past few minutes.
You know what i meant Risteard,anyway the CIRA might as well be on a permanent ceasefire :p
 

pogo

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Risteard said:
pogo said:
In that case please explain this statement made in 1940 by the IRA command:

If German forces should land in Ireland, they will land as friends and liberators of the Irish people.
It's self-explanatory. They were asked to come as liberators - not as occupiers. Look up the word "Quisling" if you don't understand its meaning.
The difference between 'liberators' and 'occupiers' is that the first are welcome, the second are not, but the action is still the same.

Presumably the Germans would have been 'liberators' to Republicans, and 'occupiers' to Unionists.

Btw do Shinners on this site agree with Risteard and the then IRA command in referring to WW2 Nazis as 'liberators'?

I have yet to read anything on this thread to contradict this view.
 

mbari hogun

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I strongly doubt Frank Ryan--who left the IRA in the mid 30's--- tried to recruit for Nazi Germany. His anti-fascist credentials were quite solid.

That article addresses the issue of Russell's "hindsight." It describes An Phoblacht's articles about Nazi Germany, which detailed the brutality and anti-Semitism inherent in the Nazi system. The only way Russell could have NOT known these very obvious facts would be by ignoring his own movement's newspaper.

Look, the IRA has apologized for some of its mistakes and atrocities. Why is the Republican Movement so adamant about defending the legacy of Sean Russell?
 

badinage

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BCB said:
Pogo said:
Fairly obviously the bomb was planted in the Shankill fish shop for sectarian reasons, and had little or nothing to do with 'getting the Brits out of Ireland', (unless your definition of 'Brits' includes apolitical Prods buying fish).
Don't talk rubbish,that bomb was designed to eliminate the leadership of the UDA/UFF who are amongst the most vicious sectarian murderers in the North Of Ireland.It is widely believed Johnny Adair was one of the targets..It exploded prematurely tragically killing an IRA Volunteer and innocent Protestants.The sectarian UDA/UFF, UVF,LVF,RHC,etc have indiscriminatly tortured and murdered innocent Catholics for decades.
BCB, do you think successfully killing the UDA leadership would have resulted in more, or less, loyalist sectarian killings?
 

Risteard

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pogo said:
Btw do Shinners on this site agree with Risteard and the then IRA command in referring to WW2 Nazis as 'liberators'?
Excuse me, I never referred to them as "liberators". What I said was that Russell's motivations were genuine.
 

BCB

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badinage said:
BCB said:
Pogo said:
Fairly obviously the bomb was planted in the Shankill fish shop for sectarian reasons, and had little or nothing to do with 'getting the Brits out of Ireland', (unless your definition of 'Brits' includes apolitical Prods buying fish).
Don't talk rubbish,that bomb was designed to eliminate the leadership of the UDA/UFF who are amongst the most vicious sectarian murderers in the North Of Ireland.It is widely believed Johnny Adair was one of the targets..It exploded prematurely tragically killing an IRA Volunteer and innocent Protestants.The sectarian UDA/UFF, UVF,LVF,RHC,etc have indiscriminatly tortured and murdered innocent Catholics for decades.
BCB, do you think successfully killing the UDA leadership would have resulted in more, or less, loyalist sectarian killings?
Who knows but it would've have been sweet as a nut to eliminate those cretins and would've certainly put the fear of God into a lot of Loyalists if the attack would've been succesful
 

smiffy

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BCB said:
Who knows but it would've have been sweet as a nut to eliminate those cretins and would've certainly put the fear of God into a lot of Loyalists if the attack would've been succesful
Did Loughall put the fear of God into a lot of Republicans?

badinage makes an important point. Don't you think it's necessary to take into account the possible wider ramifications of actions like this (on the community the IRA was supposedly 'defending', if nothing else) before they're carried out?
 

mbari hogun

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The IRA aren't responsible for what Loyalists do. If the IRA eliminated the UDA's leadership-- and good on 'em for trying-- whatever retaliation the UDA attempted would be their own decision.

I'd hate to invoke World War II, but seeing as this thread originated on the subject, I guess I will. The French Resistance would target occupying forces and French traitors, knowing full well that the Nazis would respond with brutality. Should there not have been a resistance..?

(Personally, I believe the brutality of the fascist retaliations only served to demonstrate just how justified the Resistance were in killing off Germans.)
 

duff

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smiffy said:
BCB said:
Who knows but it would've have been sweet as a nut to eliminate those cretins and would've certainly put the fear of God into a lot of Loyalists if the attack would've been succesful
Did Loughall put the fear of God into a lot of Republicans?

badinage makes an important point. Don't you think it's necessary to take into account the possible wider ramifications of actions like this (on the community the IRA was supposedly 'defending', if nothing else) before they're carried out?
the IRA was being pressured to hit back, lets all remember what was happening in the early 90s the UDA and UVF were killing every few nights, especially the UDA. The pressure was pileing onto the IRA to hit back at the UDA. The IRA saw its opportunity to wipe out the UDA leadership. Unfortunatly they werent there and it went disastorously wrong.
 

smiffy

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mbari hogun said:
The IRA aren't responsible for what Loyalists do. If the IRA eliminated the UDA's leadership-- and good on 'em for trying-- whatever retaliation the UDA attempted would be their own decision.

I'd hate to invoke World War II, but seeing as this thread originated on the subject, I guess I will. The French Resistance would target occupying forces and French traitors, knowing full well that the Nazis would respond with brutality. Should there not have been a resistance..?
Well if the only effect of the resistance was that the Nazis responded with brutality, then there probably shouldn't have been. However, that wasn't the only effect. The resistance was part of a wider campaign against the Nazi occupation of France as well as the Nazi war machine across Europe. In that light you can argue that the deaths of those targetted by the Nazis as retaliation from resistance attacks is outweighed by the larger benefits of contributing to the overthrow of the occupation.

That's not the same as the situation in Northern Ireland. Certainly, the loyalist paramilitaries would be the ones responsible for any killings they carry out. And I certainly wouldn't shed any tears over their deaths. However, just because they might deserve to be killed (which I'm not necessarily saying) isn't enough to actually kill them. If the killings result in nothing more than more Catholics being killed, regardless of who are actually 'responsible' for this, shouldn't that be taken into consideration when deciding whether or not to carry out the operation.

At the end of the day, what good would it actually do?
 

mbari hogun

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It could've made the UDA into a less effective killing machine. Aside from the issue of planning, which, for Loyalists, isn't much of a concern, the loss of several senior members might hinder their fundraising, weapons smuggling, etc. There could also be a loss of will and direction among some members-- see the LVF after Billy Wright's execution for an example.
 

pogo

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mbari hogun said:
I strongly doubt Frank Ryan--who left the IRA in the mid 30's--- tried to recruit for Nazi Germany. His anti-fascist credentials were quite solid.
There's no doubt about it.

Even Padraig O'Ruairc writing in defence of Ryan, refers to his attempting to recruit an Irish Brigade from British POWs incarcerated in Germany.

More damaging is the fact that Ryan worked for German intelligence until his death in 1944, in a department headed by the notorious Edmund Veesenmayer.

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t081/t08178.html
 


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