Afghanistan...'it's been a draw'

JacquesHughes

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'If the truce works...the result has been a draw'. So says General Lord Richards ( retired head of British army) to Sky News, as the USA and Taliban prepare to sign a 'peace treaty' today which will lead to most US and allied troops leaving after almost 19 years of invasion and aftermath

This is an astonishing outcome 40 years after the 'lessons' of Vietnam were learned. A draw with an adversary who had no industrial base, no international sponsor, no diplomatic support, was ringed around by hostile states ( including Iran), had an insane ideology ( maybe none), and received almost no ex-pat funding from affluent countries.

For Britain the cultural gleanings of the conflict were thin enough, Captain Hennessy's book, and the film Kajaki, and the spontaneous outpourings of grief at Wootton Bassett ( until the route was changed to discourage the unwarlike spectacle).

'No talks with terrorists' was another casualty. At shocking cost to the Afghanistan people ( rarely mentioned or counted; impoverished Iran hosts 3 million Afghan refugees); is there now a little less confidance that 'asymetric war is only going one way'?
 


toughbutfair

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The west try to fight wars “nicely” and kill as few civilians as possible. If you go to war, then it should be complete mobilization (including the draft) and/or use the nuclear bomb . Otherwise the home side will just dig deep and out last you. You can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs so if the war is justified so are the deaths.

They were training terrorists so war is justified.
 

middleground

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The west try to fight wars “nicely” and kill as few civilians as possible. If you go to war, then it should be complete mobilization (including the draft) and/or use the nuclear bomb . Otherwise the home side will just dig deep and out last you. You can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs so if the war is justified so are the deaths.

They were training terrorists so war is justified.
Tell your nice war BS to all of the dead Yemenis, Afghanis, Iraqis, Libyans etc. The Taliban have defeated the americans, it wasn't a draw. No puppet ruler left behind, no valuable natural resources pillaged, no V-day march down the mall :)
 

rainmaker

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Tell your nice war BS to all of the dead Yemenis, Afghanis, Iraqis, Libyans etc. The Taliban have defeated the americans, it wasn't a draw. No puppet ruler left behind, no valuable natural resources pillaged, no V-day march down the mall :)
Yes, they are truly heroic freedom fighters, true heroes of the people who fought off an unprovoked invasion by oil seeking imperialists.

Nothing flawed in that rosy picture at all.
 

middleground

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Yes, they are truly heroic freedom fighters, true heroes of the people who fought off an unprovoked invasion by oil seeking imperialists.

Nothing flawed in that rosy picture at all.
Up to Afghanis to sort themselves out.
 

rainmaker

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the spontaneous outpourings of grief at Wootton Bassett ( until the route was changed to discourage the unwarlike spectacle).
That is not why the route was changed.

The route was only used for a short period of the war anyway, from 2007 - 2011. It had to be changed after RAF Lyneham was transferred from an air operations base to the Defence Electronics School, a move planned before the repatriations began.
 

rainmaker

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Up to Afghanis to sort themselves out.
Not when they were allowing AQ to plan, prepare, organize & launch attacks like those of September 11th. That is kind of asking for a military response.

(Although I'm sure you have some conspiracy theory as to why it was carried out by the Americans themselves or the Jews).
 

middleground

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Not when they were allowing AQ to plan, prepare, organize & launch attacks like those of September 11th. That is kind of asking for a military response.

(Although I'm sure you have some conspiracy theory as to why it was carried out by the Americans themselves or the Jews).
So were there sanctions or actions taken against the Saudis, I am sure as well that you have conspiracy theories about that.
 

rainmaker

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So were there sanctions or actions taken against the Saudis, I am sure as well that you have conspiracy theories about that.
They weren't based, trained and planning the attack in Saudi.
 

former wesleyan

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Russians. That's who invaded and slaughtered Afghanis. Afghanis supported by the Americans. Enter Pakistan and its ISI.
 

middleground

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Hewson

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'If the truce works...the result has been a draw'. So says General Lord Richards ( retired head of British army) to Sky News, as the USA and Taliban prepare to sign a 'peace treaty' today which will lead to most US and allied troops leaving after almost 19 years of invasion and aftermath

This is an astonishing outcome 40 years after the 'lessons' of Vietnam were learned. A draw with an adversary who had no industrial base, no international sponsor, no diplomatic support, was ringed around by hostile states ( including Iran), had an insane ideology ( maybe none), and received almost no ex-pat funding from affluent countries.

For Britain the cultural gleanings of the conflict were thin enough, Captain Hennessy's book, and the film Kajaki, and the spontaneous outpourings of grief at Wootton Bassett ( until the route was changed to discourage the unwarlike spectacle).

'No talks with terrorists' was another casualty. At shocking cost to the Afghanistan people ( rarely mentioned or counted; impoverished Iran hosts 3 million Afghan refugees); is there now a little less confidance that 'asymetric war is only going one way'?
Welcome news but nobody should be under any illusions about what lies ahead.

The principle aim of the Taliban was the removal of US troops from their country. They now have that within 14 months with no precondition other than an agreement to enter talks with the Afghan government. The North Vietnamese signed the 1973 peace accord in Paris and followed up a couple of years later with a massive invasion of the south. The Americans pulled the last of their troops out and left the government and its army to their fate. Afghanistan may suffer a similar fate.

There's no way the Taliban will bend on their religious fundamentalism and regardless of what kind of a deal is eventually reached with the Afghan government it's only a matter of time before society there is under their thumb again.

America is just the latest empire to fall into the quicksand in Afghanistan with damn all to show for their money and blood.
 

toughbutfair

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Up to Afghanis to sort themselves out.
Agreed. If Afghans want that type of society, that's their business, I don't give a flying F. However, when they allow their land to be used to train terrorists to murder westerners, I say that we should destroy them.
 

omgsquared

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The US was probably justified in their early interventions and were very successful when utilizing SF and Afghan allies. but as with many other examples were dragged into the mess taht is was.
Now Kudos to Mr Trump he has sorted out a withdrawal .
Now where will all of the warlords and hangers on obtain their incomes.
Meanwhile the Chinese are well ensconced there looting the natural resources.
 

midlander12

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Welcome news but nobody should be under any illusions about what lies ahead.

The principle aim of the Taliban was the removal of US troops from their country. They now have that within 14 months with no precondition other than an agreement to enter talks with the Afghan government. The North Vietnamese signed the 1973 peace accord in Paris and followed up a couple of years later with a massive invasion of the south. The Americans pulled the last of their troops out and left the government and its army to their fate. Afghanistan may suffer a similar fate.

There's no way the Taliban will bend on their religious fundamentalism and regardless of what kind of a deal is eventually reached with the Afghan government it's only a matter of time before society there is under their thumb again.

America is just the latest empire to fall into the quicksand in Afghanistan with damn all to show for their money and blood.
Yep, they are beat, and much as it pains me to say anything positive about Trump, he at least has had the guts to throw in the towel. Sadly, the future of Afghanistan is undoubtedly grim, as was its history before and during the US involvement.
 

midlander12

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You can nudge countries in the right direction but when serious exertion is required the results are rarely good. It’s still a shame to see progress on rights for women go down the tubes there.
Ironically the Soviets and their Afghan puppets probably 'achieved' more in that regard than the Americans, but at a horrendous cost. I've come to the conclusion that all outside intervention in this part of the world does more harm than good. Unfortunately it will have to find its own way towards progress, and we are probably looking at centuries rather than decades.
 


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