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Ahern: Property speculators 'should be taxed out of existenc


Reggie Perrin

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Mar 31, 2006
Messages
25
Re: Ahern: Property speculators 'should be taxed out of exis

FakeViking said:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/08/30/story274626.html

From the party that is responsible for the great pyramid scheme, soon to collapse!
Maybe the Government should look at its policies and step back a little. Maybe Ahern should think before he speaks.

Maybe they should do something more about Stamp Duty imposed on Buyers, including first time buyers. When if you buy a Site to build your first time home and build on it yourself, ie get a Builder to build for you or direct labour, you pay basically 9% Stamp Duty on the market value of the Site if over €150000 Site value (most Sites with planning are over this amount).

Maybe they should sort out the situation where a First Time Buyer in a Housing Estate thinks there is no Stamp Duty as the House is under FLoor Area size (125 square metres - a modest house) but there is, if there is no Floor Area Compliance Certificate available at purchase. Whereas, with Houses in Housing Estates over Floor Area size there can be exemption from Stamp Duty with a simple Engineer's letter saying it is over 125 sq metres.

Maybe they should have let the First Time Buyers Grant alone. It wasn't huge, but it meant a lot to people to get something towards their first purpose, to buy furniture or whatever.

Maybe they shouldn't have raised VAT from 12.5 to 13.5%. Builders have passed this on to the Buyers.

Maybe Ahern has forgotton the massive revenue the Gov is getting from Stamp Duty imposed on property investors and also the Capital Gains Tax revenue it is getting.

Maybe the Gov should sort out its own house before making stupid comments like this and passing on the buck to others and trying to hide its own failings.
 

Reggie Perrin

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Mar 31, 2006
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By the way, what is this thread doing in the Northern Ireland Forum?
 

Shepherd

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I just love the way a minister, A MINISTER, talks as if "someone in authorty should do something!" That's a Fianna Fail trick that continues to work time and time again.
 

Ponzi

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Shepherd said:
I just love the way a minister, A MINISTER, talks as if "someone in authority should do something!" That's a Fianna Fail trick that continues to work time and time again.

Yeah what a laugh. That particular horse has bolted long time. And the idea of pumping more liquidity into the shambles by cutting taxes and introducing grants again is not a good idea. At the moment at least some of the funny money is landing up in the governments coffers. FF have brought this nation to the brink of economic ruination.
 

hiker

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May 9, 2005
Messages
1,961
Ponzi said:
Yeah what a laugh. That particular horse has bolted long time. And the idea of pumping more liquidity into the shambles by cutting taxes and introducing grants again is not a good idea. At the moment at least some of the funny money is landing up in the governments coffers. FF have brought this nation to the brink of economic ruination.

You seem determined to grasp failure from the jaws of success.
 

Sidewinder

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Messages
442
hiker said:
You seem determined to grasp failure from the jaws of success.
Well, if teetering on the edge of the greatest asset bubble crash in Irish economic history is this Government's definition of "success".....
 

Quant

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14
I just love the way a minister, A MINISTER, talks as if "someone in authorty should do something!" That's a Fianna Fail trick that continues to work time and time again.
My thoughts exactly. I'd welcome the comments if I thought they actually meant anything, or some sort of concrete action would follow. Anyway, it's about 10 years too late.
 

Ponzi

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Messages
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hiker said:
Ponzi said:
Yeah what a laugh. That particular horse has bolted long time. And the idea of pumping more liquidity into the shambles by cutting taxes and introducing grants again is not a good idea. At the moment at least some of the funny money is landing up in the governments coffers. FF have brought this nation to the brink of economic ruination.

You seem determined to grasp failure from the jaws of success.
I think you'll find that the present government has managed to stuff success past the jaws of failure and half way down its gullet. But I suppose as a supporter of the PD's you measure success in terms of falling competitiveness, rising debt, a property bubble, shambolic inadequate infrastructure and an over reliance on a weakening American economy and and American corporations.
 

kerrynorth

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Oct 5, 2005
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1,525
Shepherd said:
I just love the way a minister, A MINISTER, talks as if "someone in authorty should do something!" That's a Fianna Fail trick that continues to work time and time again.
There must be an election coming :lol:

Apparantly developers have ONLY one vote each just like the rest of the mugs! :roll:
 

The OD

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Oct 10, 2005
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11,434
kerrynorth said:
Shepherd said:
I just love the way a minister, A MINISTER, talks as if "someone in authorty should do something!" That's a Fianna Fail trick that continues to work time and time again.
There must be an election coming :lol:

Apparantly developers have ONLY one vote each just like the rest of the mugs! :roll:
Yeah and they get preferential treatment and the ear of those elected, just like the rest of us mugs....

Oh wait, the rest of us mugs are treated like ignorant peasants.....

Muppet.
 

kerrynorth

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Messages
1,525
The OD said:
kerrynorth said:
Shepherd said:
I just love the way a minister, A MINISTER, talks as if "someone in authorty should do something!" That's a Fianna Fail trick that continues to work time and time again.
There must be an election coming :lol:

Apparantly developers have ONLY one vote each just like the rest of the mugs! :roll:
Yeah and they get preferential treatment and the ear of those elected, just like the rest of us mugs....

Oh wait, the rest of us mugs are treated like ignorant peasants.....

Muppet.
I am agreeing with your view not disagreeing with using a bit of irony!
 

meriwether

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Dec 1, 2004
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12,604
Yeah, property speculators, hmm.
What exactly constitutes a peoperty speculator? Id imagine it is someone who takes a position on property, with the intent to make a profit. Now, my 4 years in college taught me an inescapable fact- to make a profit, you gotta sell for more than what you paid for it (Del Boy also taught me this).
Or does a property speculator come into existance due to the size of his acquisitions, eg someone who owns quite a number of houses? Or is it someone who owns a large bank of rezoned land, and sits on it to see what sort of price he gets?
The thing is, none of these practices are either illegal nor immoral. If I want to buy a house and sell it on 6 months later, or buy 100 houses and sell them on, or not put up my 50 acres of rezoned land, well then I will, and Minister Ahern can **** off with all this 'hate-the-rich' populist nonsense.
We dont like property speculators, because we cant afford a house. It comes down to prejudice simply. And I speak as a 23 year-old propertyless pauper, who has zero connection to any property speculators who someday will have to deal with speculators to buy a house. I probably wont like them very much, but we have to keep perspective here.
The second post here, outlining some of the exchequer costs associated with property made a lot more sense to me than Minister Ahern's input.
 

david

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Feb 6, 2003
Messages
190
Is there anyone posting on this forum has connections with property dealers/estate agents?

I ask because on my travels I've seen thousands properties for sale out in the west - and some have been for sale for months - in addition to all the new builds (and then there are countless live-able but unoccupied houses) and I'm wondering what they're expecting. If prices are too high for people, and properties are on a crowded market for months, where does it lead? I see little evidence of price reductions to get rid of property.

So, it appears that there are a lot of people with a lot of property, none of it moving. OK, I'm sure stuff is moving but just looking around, it seems an awful slow market. Who's going to fill these houses? Are they ever going to sell? Was this stuff bought so cheaply in the nineties that the money paid now seems like loose change?

I'm not moving any time soon myself and have merely an academic interest but it would be good to hear an inside story.

Plus, of course, I think the countryside now has three types of litter: the stuff thrown out of car windows, unwanted buildings and the signs that advertise them.
 

Sidewinder

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Oct 23, 2004
Messages
442
I've noticed an increase in inventory round Galway in the last few weeks. There's a lot of For Sale signs out there. I think the market has peaked, and this bubble is about to burst.

It'll take a few months for the herd to realise it but quite simply we have massive over-supply as it is, with another 80-100,000 units that we simply don't need coming on stream over 2006.

When the herd catches on, there'll be carnage.

For those looking to sell at the top of the market - you just missed it.

Over the next 3-4 months you'll see inventory refusing to shift. Instead of price falls, you'll get sellers adding in things like new kitchens, or cash back arrangements, or throw in a car, or anything really to prop up the official sale price. That can only last for so long though and when sentiment switches it will do so overnight and prices will tumble....just as they are doing right now in the US.

It's instructive to note that the Irish housing market hit a natural peak in early-2001 and was actually falling slightly before Greenspan tried to inflate his way out of the dotcom-bubble recession. All gains in house prices in Ireland since 2001 are purely caused by the speculatory bubble, and when it bursts all that froth will vanish. There's going to be a hell of a lot of people in negative equity territory.
 

hiker

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1,961
Sidewinder said:
I've noticed an increase in inventory round Galway in the last few weeks. There's a lot of For Sale signs out there. I think the market has peaked, and this bubble is about to burst.

It'll take a few months for the herd to realise it but quite simply we have massive over-supply as it is, with another 80-100,000 units that we simply don't need coming on stream over 2006.

When the herd catches on, there'll be carnage.

For those looking to sell at the top of the market - you just missed it.

Over the next 3-4 months you'll see inventory refusing to shift. Instead of price falls, you'll get sellers adding in things like new kitchens, or cash back arrangements, or throw in a car, or anything really to prop up the official sale price. That can only last for so long though and when sentiment switches it will do so overnight and prices will tumble....just as they are doing right now in the US.

It's instructive to note that the Irish housing market hit a natural peak in early-2001 and was actually falling slightly before Greenspan tried to inflate his way out of the dotcom-bubble recession. All gains in house prices in Ireland since 2001 are purely caused by the speculatory bubble, and when it bursts all that froth will vanish. There's going to be a hell of a lot of people in negative equity territory.
The figures from the US dont look good at all for sure.

Negative equity will only affect speculators. Most of us will live in our houses for years to come so we should be protected long term.

My advice with any spare cash?

Bang it into your mortgage and pay it off as quick as you can. Its the interest on the loan that will break your heart long term.
 

Badboy

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Oct 17, 2003
Messages
34
Sidewinder said:
I've noticed an increase in inventory round Galway in the last few weeks. There's a lot of For Sale signs out there. I think the market has peaked, and this bubble is about to burst.

It'll take a few months for the herd to realise it but quite simply we have massive over-supply as it is, with another 80-100,000 units that we simply don't need coming on stream over 2006.

When the herd catches on, there'll be carnage.

For those looking to sell at the top of the market - you just missed it.

Over the next 3-4 months you'll see inventory refusing to shift. Instead of price falls, you'll get sellers adding in things like new kitchens, or cash back arrangements, or throw in a car, or anything really to prop up the official sale price. That can only last for so long though and when sentiment switches it will do so overnight and prices will tumble....just as they are doing right now in the US.

It's instructive to note that the Irish housing market hit a natural peak in early-2001 and was actually falling slightly before Greenspan tried to inflate his way out of the dotcom-bubble recession. All gains in house prices in Ireland since 2001 are purely caused by the speculatory bubble, and when it bursts all that froth will vanish. There's going to be a hell of a lot of people in negative equity territory.
There is a six thousand square foot site on Taylors hill in Galway for 1.3million. Thats madness.

However given that we are looking at a May election, obviously those that know most about property think it will hold till next Summer.

I was travelling through Gort last week and I couldn't find a road sign because every junction had about ten sale signs on it.

Definitely the market is saturated in places.

The reallity is a collapse would be bad for all of us and as always the poorest in society suffer most from rapid change.
 

david

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Feb 6, 2003
Messages
190
In the context of property speculation, surely if there is a collapse, many properties presently on sale will just drop down to a more realistic value?

A lot of the price of stuff on the market is profit or speculative markup. The speculator may win if s/he sells before the collapse but can't lose because the properties are unlikely to go below what they paid for them. These lads are in the game for thousands, not hundreds.

The real losers in a collapse are those who find they have to move because of work or divorce or whatever and they're stuck with a half-a-million mortgage; in other words, ordinary joes. Others should just stay put.

I've just heard of some gazumping going on amongst property dealers. The story was two dealers had a house on their books. One dealer 'sold' the house and, a few days later, so did another, for more money. The seller, of course, took the higher offer.

It's years since I bought a house: presumably, in the above case, the first offer had been made but not formally accepted when the second came in. Still stinks though.
 

Sidewinder

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Messages
442
david said:
In the context of property speculation, surely if there is a collapse, many properties presently on sale will just drop down to a more realistic value?
Yeah, but the problem is that a "realistic value" for Irish property means going back to 1999 prices :shock:

david said:
A lot of the price of stuff on the market is profit or speculative markup. The speculator may win if s/he sells before the collapse but can't lose because the properties are unlikely to go below what they paid for them. These lads are in the game for thousands, not hundreds
Where did you get that idea? Prices can, will, and do fall significantly below what was paid for them. Japanese property prices fell for 15 years running after their bubble burst in 1990.

Given that the keiretsu, Japanese banking system and the semi-feudal nature of the LDP held up reforms for years ours is unlikely to take so long. More likely is 2-3 years of falling nominal values, followed by 6 or so years of stagnant nominal prices, with the real value being eroded through inflation.
 
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