Air France jet crashes with 228 on board.



kerrynorth

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Nothing confirmed yet that I am aware of. Just that it has disappeared off the radar screen.
 

FakeViking

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Is this the first Airbus A330 to be lost in such circumstances? Until the facts are clear, it surely casts doubt on the whole ETOPS (Extended Twin Operations, aka Engines Turn or Passengers Swim) regime?
 
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Is this the first Airbus A330 to be lost in such circumstances? Until the facts are clear, it surely casts doubt on the whole ETOPS (Extended Twin Operations, aka Engines Turn or Passengers Swim) regime?
Read a good book by an air-crash investigation guy, name escapes me, who said it was only a matter of time before a twin-engined jet goes down in mid-atlantic. That incident in the Hudson would have turned out very different trying to land on a choppy sea.

EDIT: was FINAL CALL by Stephen Barlay, very critical of the coming together of de-regulation and the use of twin-engined jets over oceans and deserts.
 

kittyn

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Its not looking good for the plane and her passengers as it was supposed to land at 11.10............. Lets keep our fingers crossed for all on board but its not looking good.
 
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Is this the first Airbus A330 to be lost in such circumstances? Until the facts are clear, it surely casts doubt on the whole ETOPS (Extended Twin Operations, aka Engines Turn or Passengers Swim) regime?
Wikipedia's list of A330 incidents doest show anything similar. Apart from this incident where they got lucky:

On 24 August 2001, Air Transat, Flight 236, an A330-243, performed the world's longest recorded glide with a jet airliner after suffering fuel exhaustion over the Atlantic Ocean. The plane flew powerless for half an hour and covered 65 nautical miles (120 km) to an emergency landing in the Azores (Portugal). No one was hurt, but the aircraft suffered some structural damage and blown tires.
 
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Wikipedia's list of A330 incidents doest show anything similar. Apart from this incident where they got lucky:

On 24 August 2001, Air Transat, Flight 236, an A330-243, performed the world's longest recorded glide with a jet airliner after suffering fuel exhaustion over the Atlantic Ocean. The plane flew powerless for half an hour and covered 65 nautical miles (120 km) to an emergency landing in the Azores (Portugal). No one was hurt, but the aircraft suffered some structural damage and blown tires.
That was as a result of poor maintenance.
 

diablo

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Is this the first Airbus A330 to be lost in such circumstances? Until the facts are clear, it surely casts doubt on the whole ETOPS (Extended Twin Operations, aka Engines Turn or Passengers Swim) regime?
No it doesn't. You really think you're any safer with 4 engines instead of 2 ?....because you're not. Actually, you have double the probability of an engine failure in a 4 engine jet. The odds of a double engine failure is billions to one. (bird strikes aside but bird strikes have nothing to do with ETOPS)
 

diablo

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Read a good book by an air-crash investigation guy, name escapes me, who said it was only a matter of time before a twin-engined jet goes down in mid-atlantic. That incident in the Hudson would have turned out very different trying to land on a choppy sea.

EDIT: was FINAL CALL by Stephen Barlay, very critical of the coming together of de-regulation and the use of twin-engined jets over oceans and deserts.
Of course it is! Plane crashes happen! Most of the planes crossing atlantics are twin engined so the odds are that the next one to crash will be a twin-engined jet. What's that got to do with ETOPS being unsafe ?
 
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No it doesn't. You really think you're any safer with 4 engines instead of 2 ?....because you're not. Actually, you have double the probability of an engine failure in a 4 engine jet. The odds of a double engine failure is billions to one. (bird strikes aside but bird strikes have nothing to do with ETOPS)
Would that not depend on where you had the bird-strike and how many engines are damaged?

Surely you are safer with 4 than two because there is half the possibility of poor maintenance leaving you without an engine or two?

Was not the previous ban on twin-engined jets over oceans in place for good reasons? I understand it was only overturned when airlines/aircraft makers convinced the authorities that engine reliability had vastly improved? Which may not be the case if maintenance is being squeezed in the accounts dept.
 
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Is this the first Airbus A330 to be lost in such circumstances? Until the facts are clear, it surely casts doubt on the whole ETOPS (Extended Twin Operations, aka Engines Turn or Passengers Swim) regime?
No it doesn't. An A330 can comfortably fly on one engine. The last time a twin-engined aircraft went down over the Atlantic, it was pilot suicide (Egyptair Boeing 767). It must have been something catastrophic given that no attempt was made to contact oceanic control.
 
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Would that not depend on where you had the bird-strike and how many engines are damaged?

Surely you are safer with 4 than two because there is half the possibility of poor maintenance leaving you without an engine or two?

Was not the previous ban on twin-engined jets over oceans in place for good reasons? I understand it was only overturned when airlines/aircraft makers convinced the authorities that engine reliability had vastly improved? Which may not be the case if maintenance is being squeezed in the accounts dept.
Can we wait until knowledge is available of what occurred before deciding ETOPS may need to be revisited.
 
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Of course it is! Plane crashes happen! Most of the planes crossing atlantics are twin engined so the odds are that the next one to crash will be a twin-engined jet. What's that got to do with ETOPS being unsafe ?
Good point on the odds being more in favour of a twin-engined jet.
 

diablo

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Would that not depend on where you had the bird-strike and how many engines are damaged?

Surely you are safer with 4 than two because there is half the possibility of poor maintenance leaving you without an engine or two?

Was not the previous ban on twin-engined jets over oceans in place for good reasons? I understand it was only overturned when airlines/aircraft makers convinced the authorities that engine reliability had vastly improved? Which may not be the case if maintenance is being squeezed in the accounts dept.
Almost all bird strikes are just after take off or before landing. There are some birds that fly up at cruising altitiude but I think it's pretty unusual.

I think it's well established that engine reliability has improved over the last few decades.

Aircraft maintenance is regulated like nothing else (especially in first world countries). It's not just as simple as accountants squeezing the budget. Cutting down on maintenance would result in the airline being grounded.
 

diablo

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Sky news are saying that its looking like some sort of catastrophic failure as it disappeared and communication stopped at the same time.
 


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