Air travel in the EU after brexit

McTell

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No
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/airlines-risk-losing-flying-rights-says-leaked-brexit-paper-1.3303986


There's a lot of guff being generated behind the scenes that seems designed to slow the deal. Of great importance to us, given being on an island, aircraft leasing biz, Ryanair,

First, EU to EU flights must be made by a carrier that is 50% owned by EU persons - who knew this?

"Ownership restrictions would also apply, forcing groups such as Ryanair andInternational Airlines Group to buy out British shareholders to ensure they were 50 per cent owned and controlled by EU nationals, in order to continue operating routes within the EU." ...

If strictly applied in a no-deal Brexit scenario, such an approach would lead to the grounding of many UK flights — something British ministers have dismissed as scaremongering. The paper notes there are no World Trade Organisation fallback options for aviation and makes clear that “old bilateral agreements between member states and the UK are not revived”.



No, but there's IATA - IATA - Home

IATA - Air Traffic Management

Everyone else thinks that the "single european sky" is still at the blueprint stage -

http://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Documents/blueprint-single-european-sky.pdf


Plus US, arab, chinese and russian planes come and go without anyone denying them the right to land. The tenor of this "leaked" doc is that the EU are (on our behalf) looking for difficulties that don't really exist, unless we want them to. Do we want difficulties? Where's the margin in that?

When we're flying from Milano to Dublino, and the plane will most likely clip UK airspace, do we want to pay extra for the privilege?
 


Tribal

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The ownership rights thing is an unavoidable issue, plus while the likes of Ryanair do fly to non-EU/EEA/CU destinations like Israel and Morocco, they don't have planes or staff positioned there. The UK would be in the same situation after brexit, flights will go to the UK but not originate from there.
 
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gleeful

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Ryanair can easily solve the ownership issue by buying back some shares - something they already announced.
 

Mushroom

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Ryanair can easily solve the ownership issue by buying back some shares - something they already announced.
Not necessarily. Informed UK shareholders might decide to hang onto their shares on the chance that they'd be offered more at a later date if MOL needed to get them off the share register!
 

McTell

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No
I don't think passengers are loyal to an airline any more, so what does it matter if BA / monarch / virgin can't fly London-Madrid? They will set up a subsidiary there - probably already have one.

If a non-EU airline has, say, 5 slots to land at Frankfurt, Frankfurt can't simply confiscate or cancel them, because then nobody (say flying from the US or the Gulf) could ever be sure that their slots wouldn't be confiscated as they board their plane.

The EU receives flights from lots of 3rd world airlines as well, and they're to be preferred to Virgin? Seriously?

https://www.travelocity.com/vc/flights/ethiopian-airlines-flights-europe/


Plus all the leasing out of private jets registered in the Isle of Man for VAT reasons, where the IOM is not in the EU - but is in UK airspace - will that go on as before? They are in the UK but not in the EU already.

Will your flight from copenhagen to dallas have to swing wide to avoid UK airspace?

Too many Qs to be sorted by march 2019. Open skies the best policy for us anyway.
 

gleeful

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Not necessarily. Informed UK shareholders might decide to hang onto their shares on the chance that they'd be offered more at a later date if MOL needed to get them off the share register!
MOL could simply dilute them if needed by printing new shares.
 

Mushroom

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MOL could simply dilute them if needed by printing new shares.
But he couldn't discriminate against UK stockholders so they'd be entitled to buy them too! So that wouldn't work either. In fact it could make the problem worse!
 

gleeful

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But he couldn't discriminate against UK stockholders so they'd be entitled to buy them too! So that wouldn't work either. In fact it could make the problem worse!
He can because EU law requires that he does. How do you think airlines currently prevent nonEU investers buying too many shares?
 

Tribal

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The EU receives flights from lots of 3rd world airlines as well, and they're to be preferred to Virgin? Seriously?
From the little I understand on these matters the EU also refuses airlines whose planes aren't serviced to an internationally recognised standard. Here's a current list of airlines banned from EU airspace.
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/modes/air/safety/air-ban/doc/list_en.pdf

Post Brexit UK based airlines would have to avoid this list if they hope to fly anywhere except over the arctic circle.

EU airlines have been grounded too, I think there was a Greek airline grounded before on safety compliance issues.
 
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McTell

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No
From the little I understand on these matters the EU also refuses airlines whose planes are serviced to an internationally recognised standard. Here's a current list of airlines banned from EU airspace.
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/modes/air/safety/air-ban/doc/list_en.pdf///.

Yes, so as things stand they would be certified like any US or Chinese airline, and have to be up to that standard already. I don't see brexit stopping them from being certified.

There's nothing in article 50 that says that all airlines flying on brexit day are OK, but all those flying on brexit day + 1 are not OK.

How can you be safe enough under IATA standards, but not safe in the EU because your country is leaving the EU? I always assumed that the rules are for the benefit of passenger safety, end of.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/airlines-risk-losing-flying-rights-says-leaked-brexit-paper-1.3303986


There's a lot of guff being generated behind the scenes that seems designed to slow the deal. Of great importance to us, given being on an island, aircraft leasing biz, Ryanair,

First, EU to EU flights must be made by a carrier that is 50% owned by EU persons - who knew this?

"Ownership restrictions would also apply, forcing groups such as Ryanair andInternational Airlines Group to buy out British shareholders to ensure they were 50 per cent owned and controlled by EU nationals, in order to continue operating routes within the EU." ...

If strictly applied in a no-deal Brexit scenario, such an approach would lead to the grounding of many UK flights — something British ministers have dismissed as scaremongering. The paper notes there are no World Trade Organisation fallback options for aviation and makes clear that “old bilateral agreements between member states and the UK are not revived”.



No, but there's IATA - IATA - Home

IATA - Air Traffic Management

Everyone else thinks that the "single european sky" is still at the blueprint stage -

http://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Documents/blueprint-single-european-sky.pdf


Plus US, arab, chinese and russian planes come and go without anyone denying them the right to land. The tenor of this "leaked" doc is that the EU are (on our behalf) looking for difficulties that don't really exist, unless we want them to. Do we want difficulties? Where's the margin in that?

When we're flying from Milano to Dublino, and the plane will most likely clip UK airspace, do we want to pay extra for the privilege?
Single European Sky is not at the blueprint stage. It's a long gradual process of integration of air traffic management within the European area. Euocontrol was established in 1960 and it's purpose, contrary to the general BREXIT narrative about European bureaucracy, is to reduce the inefficiencies caused by having 30+ individual national authorities and ATC organisations managing European airspace. For example the USA with 1 national ATC organisation and regulator manages the same approx area of airspace with more traffic and nearly half the employees. Basically it's about reducing duplication. Mastrict Upper Area Control Centre is an example of the progress that has been made, combining the sovereign airspace of Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and NW Germany within a single organisation.

The question of freedoms to operate passenger services between European states and beyond is separate matter.
 
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Nebuchadnezzar

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There's a lot of scaremongering going on on a variety of Brexit issues, all designed to slow down or destroy the process. It's as though people have forgotten that there's big wide world outside of Europe who we do business with. It's a ridiculous situation that puts Britain in a very weak negotiating position while it's opposition party tries to score points and delay it at every opportunity. I'm not a Tory fan but the thought of Corbyn, Abbot and McDonnell in power horrifies me.
It's not scaremongering on this issue. It going to take a lot of time and effort by civil service staff and regulators of all the nations involved , EU and non EU, to put in place new agreements to replace what we have. Again, a prime example of the Brexiteers failure to think this stuff through and the idiocy of setting a hard deadline for BREXIT.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Yes, something will probably be sorted out, but really 'probably' is not really good enough in view of the potential mass disruption and cost if it is not resolved.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Statement from the Commission a few days ago on the status of UK airlines if no agreement can be reached. With the present shareholdings this may affect Ryanair, EasyJet, Aer Lingus(IAG), British Airways(IAG).

Air carriers of the United Kingdom will no longer enjoy traffic rights under any air transport agreement to which the Union is a party, be it to or from the territory of the United Kingdom, be it to or from the territory of any of the EU Member States.
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/legislation/2017-12-11-notice-to-stakeholders-air-transport.pdf
 

Mickeymac

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Statement from the Commission a few days ago on the status of UK airlines if no agreement can be reached. With the present shareholdings this may affect Ryanair, EasyJet, Aer Lingus(IAG), British Airways(IAG).



https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/legislation/2017-12-11-notice-to-stakeholders-air-transport.pdf


Householders in Britain will never get a letter about that, but unionists who are supporting May to stay in government will get a letter plus one billion and a statement(in secret) to keep that beach in power.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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The Financial Times had an article a few days ago concerning UK USA negotiations over what will replace the current the ‘Open Skies’ EU USA arangements post BREXIT. The emerging deal is reported to be significantly worse for the British with restrictions on airlines who don’t have 50.1% shareholding for either the USA or UK(not a problem for most US carriers but a major issue for IAG/BA and perhaps Aer Lingus).

Willie Walsh seems to have gone into full Trump/brexiteer mode, slamming the FT for fake news and saying that he will solve the shareholding problem by magic.

Walsh on Twitter....

I wouldn't believe anything that's written in the FT. The F in the FT stands for "Fake" Times".
On the ownership headache, when pressed on how IAG was planning to convince regulators British Airways was both UK and EU controlled after Brexit, Mr Walsh retorted: “magic”.
Lufthansa’s CEO thinks that BREXIT flight disruption “might be a good thing”.

Flight disruption was one of the ways the airline industry could show the Brits the full consequences of the Leave vote and “that might be a good thing”.
https://www.ft.com/content/612977f0-21bb-11e8-9a70-08f715791301

I find it hard to understand Willie Walsh’s blithe attitude. He sounds like David Davis in the immediate aftermath of the referendum saying that the negotiations would be ‘one of the easiest in human history'.
 

statsman

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The Financial Times had an article a few days ago concerning UK USA negotiations over what will replace the current the ‘Open Skies’ EU USA arangements post BREXIT. The emerging deal is reported to be significantly worse for the British with restrictions on airlines who don’t have 50.1% shareholding for either the USA or UK(not a problem for most US carriers but a major issue for IAG/BA and perhaps Aer Lingus).

Willie Walsh seems to have gone into full Trump/brexiteer mode, slamming the FT for fake news and saying that he will solve the shareholding problem by magic.

Walsh on Twitter....





Lufthansa’s CEO thinks that BREXIT flight disruption “might be a good thing”.



https://www.ft.com/content/612977f0-21bb-11e8-9a70-08f715791301

I find it hard to understand Willie Walsh’s blithe attitude. He sounds like David Davis in the immediate aftermath of the referendum saying that the negotiations would be ‘one of the easiest in human history'.
Aer Lingus transatlantic flights will still be covered by the US/EU agreement, surely?
 

Tribal

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Interesting if it meant Shannon became the EU base for UK/USA flights!
 

HarshBuzz

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For a public company like Ryanair, how can you possibly be expected to satisfy that 50% ownership rule?

US or Chinese funds could easily own more than 50% today, less tomorrow, more the next day...
 


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