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Albert


west_brit

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Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
30
Website
www.ogra.ie
What is it about Fianna Fail and forgetting Albert. O.K. Haughey was the darling of the grassroots, the man everyone loves to hate, Lemass was the pragmatist everyone things he did a good job but knows nothing about him, deV was well...deV lets not foget, the Bass guzzeling Taoiseach from Dromcondra and Jack who could forget Jack the man everyone loved (once Haughey was gone) you know Dessie O' Malley's friend. Then there was Albert. The point I'm making, or trying to is Albert Reynolds is a much forgotten figure within Fianna Fail and why>he fecked up as regards coalitions. Otherwise he was a great Taoiseach especially regarding Nt. Ireland and its time that Fianna Fail actually wake up to the fact that Reynolds was one of our better leaders. And a damn nice guy too.
 

Biffo

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Joined
Jul 1, 2004
Messages
79
west_brit said:
The point I'm making, or trying to is Albert Reynolds is a much forgotten figure within Fianna Fail
What makes you think that?
 

Arnó

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
28
I think because of the part he played in the Peace process he will always be remembered. That is his big achievment. The other leaders served longer so maybe if he had more time he would have done more?
 

BarryW

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Sep 8, 2003
Messages
262
Albert Reynolds had the shortest term of any FF leader. He only fought one General Election, and it resulted in the worst performance since the party was founded.

He mired himself in the Beef Tribunal, as if it was a personal crusade to clear his name of wrongdoing. In coalition he was too pig-headed and unwilling to compromise. His untimely downfall was of his own making.

On the upside though he did pave the way for new blood in FF. By sacking all of those who had been around forever (Burke, Mary O’ Rourke, Collins of Arabia, et al.) and also by sacking pathetic and piss-poor Ministers who were only in situ because of the distance they could get their tongue’s up Haughey’s rear end (Vincent Brady, Rory O’ Hanlon, Noel Davern, Brendan “Tax-the-Rod” Daly) he paved the way for new blood like Cowen, Dempsey, Dermot Ahern and (dare I say it) Charlie McCreevy.

And what did Ahern do ? Brought Burke and the Schoolmarm straight back to Cabinet in 1997, only for them to make a balls of their posts. History is bunk!

As leader of FF, Reynolds actually stood for something and did something about it. In this he was possibly unique.
His term as FF leader did a lot to boost FF in the longterm, unlike his predecessor who nearly destroted the party, and his successor- who is well along the road to doing likewise.

For these reasons it suits a lot of people to airbrush him out. Even Ahern has tried to do so. Remember the 1997 selection for President?!
Ahern shafted Albert, made a mockery of O’ Kennedy, and parachuted in some lawyer with a bad hairdo that no-one had ever heard of.
 

Arnó

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Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
28
BarryW said:
Even Ahern has tried to do so. Remember the 1997 selection for President?!
Ahern shafted Albert, made a mockery of O’ Kennedy, and parachuted in some lawyer with a bad hairdo that no-one had ever heard of.
I remember when that happened and although McAllese is a steady pair of hands and prehaps had Reynolds run he would not have won; we'll never know, but having said that I thought it was a sad day for Albert and I felt for the guy. He should not have been treated that way.

What incident are you refering to as the mockery of O'Kennedy?
 

Bogwarrior

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Joined
Nov 3, 2004
Messages
322
Arnó said:
I think because of the part he played in the Peace process he will always be remembered. That is his big achievment. The other leaders served longer so maybe if he had more time he would have done more?
Bert Reynolds always liked to give the impression he was driving the Peace Process, when in reality it fell on his lap. It would've happened anyway. Adams and his contacts in MI6 had it in their plans for years.
 

Arnó

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Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
28
Bogwarrior said:
Arnó said:
I think because of the part he played in the Peace process he will always be remembered. That is his big achievment. The other leaders served longer so maybe if he had more time he would have done more?
Bert Reynolds always liked to give the impression he was driving the Peace Process, when in reality it fell on his lap. It would've happened anyway. Adams and his contacts in MI6 had it in their plans for years.
He had a major part to play. Just imagine if John Bruton was there instead of him. Was he the most important person No but he did play a part and he played it well.
 

thegeneral

Active member
Joined
Apr 30, 2004
Messages
156
BarryW displaying his unique and traditionally well informed knowledge of Fianna Fáil today :roll:

BarryW said:
Albert Reynolds had the shortest term of any FF leader. He only fought one General Election, and it resulted in the worst performance since the party was founded.

and also by sacking pathetic and piss-poor Ministers who were only in situ because of the distance they could get their tongue’s up Haughey’s rear end (Vincent Brady, Rory O’ Hanlon, Noel Davern, Brendan “Tax-the-Rod” Daly) he paved the way for new blood like Cowen, Dempsey, Dermot Ahern and (dare I say it) Charlie McCreevy.

As leader of FF, Reynolds actually stood for something and did something about it. In this he was possibly unique.
His term as FF leader did a lot to boost FF in the longterm, unlike his predecessor who nearly destroted the party, and his successor- who is well along the road to doing likewise.

For these reasons it suits a lot of people to airbrush him out. Even Ahern has tried to do so. Remember the 1997 selection for President?!
Ahern shafted Albert, made a mockery of O’ Kennedy, and parachuted in some lawyer with a bad hairdo that no-one had ever heard of.
 

BarryW

Active member
Joined
Sep 8, 2003
Messages
262
thegeneral said:
BarryW displaying his unique and traditionally well informed knowledge of Fianna Fáil today :roll:
I notice you haven't bothered to point out what my inaccuracies are.

Feel free to do so, if I'm so wide of the mark
 

meriwether

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2004
Messages
12,604
Is it fair to say that Albert is'nt exactly enamoured with FF at the moment either? I say this as a) he attempted to put the boot in to Bertie a few years ago as regards letting it slip that he told Ahern Ray burke was unfit for office and b) he was pictured at some SF 100-years-of-age celebration in the Mansion house a few months back, at a time when FF were putting the boot into SF.
 

thegeneral

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Apr 30, 2004
Messages
156
thegeneral said:
BarryW displaying his unique and traditionally well informed knowledge of Fianna Fáil today :roll:

BarryW said:
Albert Reynolds had the shortest term of any FF leader. He only fought one General Election, and it resulted in the worst performance since the party was founded.

and also by sacking pathetic and piss-poor Ministers who were only in situ because of the distance they could get their tongue’s up Haughey’s rear end (Vincent Brady, Rory O’ Hanlon, Noel Davern, Brendan “Tax-the-Rod” Daly) he paved the way for new blood like Cowen, Dempsey, Dermot Ahern and (dare I say it) Charlie McCreevy.

As leader of FF, Reynolds actually stood for something and did something about it. In this he was possibly unique.
His term as FF leader did a lot to boost FF in the longterm, unlike his predecessor who nearly destroted the party, and his successor- who is well along the road to doing likewise.

For these reasons it suits a lot of people to airbrush him out. Even Ahern has tried to do so. Remember the 1997 selection for President?!
Ahern shafted Albert, made a mockery of O’ Kennedy, and parachuted in some lawyer with a bad hairdo that no-one had ever heard of.
With regard to the Ministers, Noel Davern was a Minister for a few days, I'm surprised he did anything to attract your ire. I'm very surprised that you even heard of the 'tax the rod' slogan which did lose votes for the party in 89 but it was broadly necessary at the time. As for O'Hanlon he was a brave Minister. Its not nice to be effectively under house arrest and being under siege for actions you've delivered. MacSharry's cuts were mostly apparent in health, they have left us with problems to this day but O'Hanlon acted to restore the finances and didn't bury his head in the sand and hope it would go away. And Vincent Brady was also a Minister for a few days so again see my point on Davern. By the way Reynolds sacked Ahern, Haughey promoted him.

Haughey did not nearly destroy Fianna Fáil. Colley, O'Malley and O'Donoghue would have done that. I generally expect statements such as that from PDs. Colley was an FF aristo, he thought it was his birthright to become leader of the party, now I'm not surprised that a Fine Gaeler would admire elitism but he was an elitist purse and simple. To him Haughey was an outsider, a usurper. This was the same attitude of Aiken, MacEntee and to a lesser extent Ryan. I admire those men greatly, they fought for this country's freedom and then tried to better the lives of their fellow countrymen and women through political means, however they were elitist. Aiken in particular never spoke to Haughey, never, after he became leader when Aiken was due to retire he wanted to give his seat to John Hume as an independent nationalist. The subsequent Louth TDs Faulkener, Farrell and Filgate all followed him and opposed Haughey.

It is no coincidence that the Colley, O'Malley and O'Donoghue families played a major role in setting up the PDs. Colley would have been leader if he'd been any good, he challenged Lynch as well in 66, something the PDs don't broadcast too much when discussing St. George, so would O'Malley if he hadn't had the charisma of an empty salt sellar. And without tooting my own trumpet I have written broadly fair pieces on Colley, O'Malley on the wiki and I would direct you to the McEllistrim bios also on there for some background to this whole debate.

And Bertie Ahern isn't on the way to detroying Fianna Fáil. If you want to talk about people detsroying a party look no further than Bruton and Noonan.

I get amused frequently with your pithy descriptions of certain non FG politicians who you probably believe to be somewnat insane. Amused not for the skill of your phraseology, rather that you think that you are funny. Mary McAleese was an excellent candidate for the presidency. Its unfortunate is it not that your own party couldn't even find a councillor to run for the office, says a lot about the calibre of your own heirarchy. Bertie did shaft Albert but that's because he shafted too many people in 92.
 

BarryW

Active member
Joined
Sep 8, 2003
Messages
262
So many facts wrong, so little time!

thegeneral said:
Noel Davern was a Minister for a few days,

And Vincent Brady was also a Minister for a few days
4 months each. My point is that they were piss-poor TDs, had not distinguished themselves in any way within FF, and were only appointed because they were pals of Haughey.

The length of time they were there is irrelevant (although 4 months gives you plenty of time to get your teeth into it)


thegeneral said:
I'm very surprised that you even heard of the 'tax the rod' slogan which did lose votes for the party in 89 but it was broadly necessary at the time
My mother always refers to him as "tax the Rod" Daly, and remembers fondly his long years bickering with his old foe Madeline Taylor Quinn.

thegeneral said:
As for O'Hanlon he was a brave Minister. O'Hanlon acted to restore the finances and didn't bury his head in the sand and hope it would go away
Brave, was he?! Didn't bury his head in the sand, ey?!
My my you have a very strange view of this period.

O' Hanlon was the FF spokesperson on Health from 83-87. By the time the '87 election was approaching, it was clear that action would have to be taken to put right health spending. Fine Gael proposed reform and cuts.

So what did "brave" Rory propose?? Increases in spending! Himself and Haughey ran around the country proclaiming that the FG cuts would "hurt the old, the sick and the handicapped".

O' Hanlon buried his head in the sand. Haughey buried his head up his own arse. And they lied to the electorate!

Brave?! :eek:

thegeneral said:
By the way Reynolds sacked Ahern, Haughey promoted him
What ?! :eek:
Reynolds appointed Ahern Minister for Finance!

thegeneral said:
And Bertie Ahern isn't on the way to detroying Fianna Fáil
Ah - its almost refreshing to see FFers in denial.
Incompetent leadership, record low opinion poll ratings, rock-bottom approval, worst election result since 1927, more members dying than joining, unable to shake off the uncaring PD image

Time will tell, my friend! :lol:
 

DOD

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
643
While obviously I don't share his social views, I say fair play to Albert for wearing his nationalism on his sleeve.
 

TheChief

Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2004
Messages
29
DOD said:
While obviously I don't share his social views, I say fair play to Albert for wearing his nationalism on his sleeve.
Then you admire Haughey also?
I wud have thought that committing treason against the state by attempting to run guns in to th north was the most nationalist thing a guy could do, by your estimation?! :)
 

DOD

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Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
643
TheChief said:
DOD said:
While obviously I don't share his social views, I say fair play to Albert for wearing his nationalism on his sleeve.
Then you admire Haughey also?
I wud have thought that committing treason against the state by attempting to run guns in to th north was the most nationalist thing a guy could do, by your estimation?! :)
Yes, I would have a certain admiration for anyone involved in the arms trial issue. However, he didn't exactly kick up a fuss when that evil b-i-t-c-h was letting ten Irishmen die on hunger strike.
 

CrockerJarman

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Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
107
How did that Dermot Morgan ditty about Albert go...

"I'm a Country and Western Taoiseach,
My Accent Yes, It's Flat
I'm a Country and Western Taoiseach,
Known by every Dog and Cat,
I'm the new lead vocalist,
The band's called Fianna Fail
I'm running the whole country
Like I'm running a dance hall "


there's a verse too I can't fully remember that goes like

I know Hans Dietrich Genshcer
I know Sir Peter Brooke
But for the man from Rooskey
They couldn't give a f**k,
'cos I'm a Country and Western Taoiseach.......
 

BarryW

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Sep 8, 2003
Messages
262
DOD said:
Yes, I would have a certain admiration for anyone involved in the arms trial issue. However, he didn't exactly kick up a fuss when that evil b-i-t-c-h was letting ten Irishmen die on hunger strike.
DOD - did you write Theresa Ferris' accepance speech by any chance?!

She thinks the State is to blame for daddy's unfortunate incarceration (and not his decision to become a terrorist)

And likewise, you seem to blame Mrs. Thatcher for the death of H-Block criminals (and not their decision to abstain from eating food)

Oh well !
One has to put up with such oddities in Shinner land i suppose!
 

thegeneral

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Apr 30, 2004
Messages
156
BarryW said:
So many facts wrong, so little time!
A statement like that will come back to haunt you in due course on here especially as you've been shown up on numerous threads in recent times.

[quote:33z070bo]4 months each. My point is that they were piss-poor TDs, had not distinguished themselves in any way within FF, and were only appointed because they were pals of Haughey.
Ah I see I generally refer to say 100 r so days as say 100 r so days.

The length of time they were there is irrelevant (although 4 months gives you plenty of time to get your teeth into it)
I was surprised you mentioned them as many other Ministers served longer.

My mother always refers to him as "tax the Rod" Daly, and remembers fondly his long years bickering with his old foe Madeline Taylor Quinn.
I see

Brave, was he?! Didn't bury his head in the sand, ey?!
My my you have a very strange view of this period.
Perhaps brave wasn't the best adjective.

O' Hanlon was the FF spokesperson on Health from 83-87. By the time the '87 election was approaching, it was clear that action would have to be taken to put right health spending. Fine Gael proposed reform and cuts.
FG proposed reform and cuts did they well whoop dee doo. Its a pity, that during the lackidaisical and inept government from 82-87 they didn't take any action. Would you describe that as heads in the sand?

So what did "brave" Rory propose?? Increases in spending! Himself and Haughey ran around the country proclaiming that the FG cuts would "hurt the old, the sick and the handicapped".
O' Hanlon buried his head in the sand. Haughey buried his head up his own arse. And they lied to the electorate!
This government saw FF under Haughey tackle the problems, which I'll admit were ignored from Feb-Dec 82, but you on the other hand won't admit FG and Labour ignored them from 81-82 and Dec 82-87. Was what was enacted by O'Hanlon as the Minister not what FG would have done Barry? Was it not correct.

What ?! :eek:
Reynolds appointed Ahern Minister for Finance!
That reference was with regard to Dermot Ahern as mentioned in your first post on this thread.

Ah - its almost refreshing to see FFers in denial.
Incompetent leadership, record low opinion poll ratings, rock-bottom approval, worst election result since 1927, more members dying than joining, unable to shake off the uncaring PD image
Fianna Fáil aren't in the business of sacking leaders on the basis of what a few hundred people say on an opinion poll, we're not FG and we wait to let the people decide. The important point you're overlooking is that the party's worst day was in a local and European election, not a general election as with say FG in 2002. You're also overlooking the bounce incumbent TDs will receive at an election and the majority of easy managebale conventions that FF will have with only a few problematic. The case with FG couldn't be more different where in many parts of the country bitter conventions will occur with loads of shafting and this will result in some, not all, unsuccessful candidates running as Independents and in other cases some actovists canvassing mildly at the election. By the way of you think FF are short of canvassers you're an idiot and I doubt you've ever seen an FF canvass. Oh and get over the membership nonsense we could always look at the 3rd level colleges where last Autumn FF kicked the bejaysus out of FG and had their most successful year ever on campus recruitment, but that's only a fact Barry let it sail over your head.

Time will tell, my friend! :lol:
[/quote:33z070bo]

That is something I agree with.
 

jjcarroll

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Joined
Nov 28, 2003
Messages
314
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www.semper-idem.eu
Oh and get over the membership nonsense we could always look at the 3rd level colleges where last Autumn FF kicked the bejaysus out of FG and had their most successful year ever on campus recruitment, but that's only a fact Barry let it sail over your head.
I have heard this from YFG, Labour Youth and now Ógra. I do know it was a fairly successful year for our recruitment, bit I place as much trust in what figures that were released to the press, as I do in Sky sports reports about Stephen Gerrard.
[/quote]
 

BarryW

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Joined
Sep 8, 2003
Messages
262
thegeneral said:
BarryW said:
So many facts wrong, so little time!
A statement like that will come back to haunt you in due course on here especially as you've been shown up on numerous threads in recent times[/quote]

Really?! I'd be interested to see any occasions where I've been shown up.
Its usually Rockofcashel and TlWhiskers who bear the brunt of it - but they're fair game, I admit......

thegeneral said:
This government saw FF under Haughey tackle the problems, which I'll admit were ignored from Feb-Dec 82, but you on the other hand won't admit FG and Labour ignored them from 81-82 and Dec 82-87. Was what was enacted by O'Hanlon as the Minister not what FG would have done Barry? Was it not correct
The only problem was that it was not what the people voteed for. Haughey lied to the electorate in a cynical attempt to grab power, and broke every promise he had made by making worse cuts than were being proposed by FG.

Please don't try to paint this period as a huge patriotic act on Haughey's behalf. He lied to the voters, and made irresponsible promises he knew he couldn't keep.

thegeneral said:
Fianna Fáil aren't in the business of sacking leaders on the basis of what a few hundred people say on an opinion poll, we're not FG and we wait to let the people decide
Really? Wasn't Lynch booted out midstream, because of poor ratings??
Reynolds got the axe for a similar reason (but he provided a nice excuse for FF to give him the boot)

thegeneral said:
The important point you're overlooking is that the party's worst day was in a local and European election
Don't forget the trouncing in two bye-elections in safe FF constituencies (this was what did for Lynch in '79, remember....) - or the continued slide in the opinion polls since last March.


thegeneral said:
The case with FG couldn't be more different where in many parts of the country bitter conventions will occur with loads of shafting and this will result in some, not all, unsuccessful candidates running as Independents and in other cases some actovists canvassing mildly at the election
What possible basis do you have to say this? Can you give us any examples?


thegeneral said:
By the way of you think FF are short of canvassers you're an idiot and I doubt you've ever seen an FF canvass
Last May while canvassing in Limerick we met Jack Bourke, an ageing Councillor, not in good health, canvassing on his own. We were stunned to see it, but it highlighted one thing to me - that the FF membership in most of the country is very old and completely inactive.
Incidentally, Bourke lost half his votes to Fine Gael, and lost his seat to Labour.

thegeneral said:
Oh and get over the membership nonsense we could always look at the 3rd level colleges where last Autumn FF kicked the bejaysus out of FG and had their most successful year ever on campus recruitment
Unless you're referring specifically to UCD then you're waaay wide of the mark.

What figures are you basing this on?[/quote]
 
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