• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please us viua the Contact us link in the footer.

An interactive linguistic/ethnic map of Europe


FloatingVoterTralee

Well-known member
Joined
May 8, 2009
Messages
997
Generally, the tendency is to think of European international boundaries as immutable due to relative cultural homogeneity, but this excellent Eurominority map explodes this myth by radically redrawing the continental atlas. Spain, containing the most familiar minorities, gets the biggest shake-up, but Occitania (the Provencal-speaking region), proves much larger than expected, Samiland (Lapland) occupies a huge Scandinavian wedge, and many of the smaller groupings may well be hitherto unknown to even the most culturally-aware P.ie member.
 


Dadaist

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
13,788
But the province of Valencia is not in Catalonia. They are fierce cultural rivals. As for showing Northern Ireland as being Ireland, with a tricolour and the Irish language, well? And most importantly of all they forgot the Republic of Cork.
 

FloatingVoterTralee

Well-known member
Joined
May 8, 2009
Messages
997
Valencian is just another dialect of Catalan, though - there's a story (possibly apocryphal), of how Spain had to translate EU legislation into Catalan, the Valencian Generalitat demanded a translation into "Valencian" and both documents were identical, but labelled differently.
 

Dadaist

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
13,788
Valencian is just another dialect of Catalan, though - there's a story (possibly apocryphal), of how Spain had to translate EU legislation into Catalan, the Valencian Generalitat demanded a translation into "Valencian" and both documents were identical, but labelled differently.
You do know that Valencia was a kingdom distinct from Catalonia. Valencian and Catalan are two different languages as they have a different origin and a different linguistic evolution throughout many centuries in different social-linguistic, political-cultural and geographical spaces. However, it is obvious that all the Neo-Latin Iberian languages have a high degree of similarities and seem much alike.

The ancient Valencian language was spoken by the Roman-Iberian people and their descendants who continued living in the Valencian territories after the conquest of the Roman-Gothic Hispania by the Moors.
 

Keith-M

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
15,779
Website
www.allkindsofeverything.ie
But the province of Valencia is not in Catalonia. They are fierce cultural rivals. As for showing Northern Ireland as being Ireland, with a tricolour and the Irish language, well? And most importantly of all they forgot the Republic of Cork.

The flag of the republic over N.I. just denotes the source of the language. However for consistency they should also have used the Catalan flag to cover the speakers in Sardegna. There are several omissions here, for example the Hungarian speakers in Northern Serbia and North Western Romania, The German speakers in Belgium etc
 

Riadach

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2007
Messages
12,847
I may be misreading it, but they also seem to think the sorbs in Eastern Germany are Serbs.
 

Keith-M

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
15,779
Website
www.allkindsofeverything.ie
I may be misreading it, but they also seem to think the sorbs in Eastern Germany are Serbs.
Yes, they are called the Sorbs as Serbs (incorrect, although both are Slavic) although they are using the Sorbia rather than the Serbian flag.

"Vexillologist setting to stun" ;-)
 

forest

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Messages
3,372
"Generally, the tendency is to think of European international boundaries as immutable due to relative cultural homogeneity"

By whom?
The borders of europe have continually shifted throughout history and will shift again
Most have come about from war and are based on compromises, some like that between Luxembourg and France are pretty meaningless
 

Keith-M

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
15,779
Website
www.allkindsofeverything.ie
"Generally, the tendency is to think of European international boundaries as immutable due to relative cultural homogeneity"

By whom?
The borders of europe have continually shifted throughout history and will shift again
Most have come about from war and are based on compromises, some like that between Luxembourg and France are pretty meaningless

Exactly, long before the EU (or EEC) you could travel within Benelux without any border checks. Over 90% of European countries have seen their borders change or have suffered invasion in the last 100 years.
 

Earnest

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
413
You do know that Valencia was a kingdom distinct from Catalonia. Valencian and Catalan are two different languages as they have a different origin and a different linguistic evolution throughout many centuries in different social-linguistic, political-cultural and geographical spaces. However, it is obvious that all the Neo-Latin Iberian languages have a high degree of similarities and seem much alike.

The ancient Valencian language was spoken by the Roman-Iberian people and their descendants who continued living in the Valencian territories after the conquest of the Roman-Gothic Hispania by the Moors.
While the history of Valencia is different from that of Catalonia, that is also true of the Balearic Islands and of Roussillon (the bit that's been part of France since Louis XIV). Ethnologue (Catalán | Ethnologue), a standard source, regards Valencian as a dialect of Catalan, as does Wikipedia (Valencian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

The main problem with this array of information is that a lot of it is historically based and does not refer to languages or nationalities currently observable. For example, Lapps are a small minority in the area mapped for them; the area marked for the Frisians is far larger than the language is now spoken; it is difficult to understand why Silesia totally occupied by Poles is distinct from the other ex-German territories in Poland; and by describing Scotland as Alba (the Gaelic name) it ignores the separate identity of the Scots speakers.
 

forest

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Messages
3,372
Exactly, long before the EU (or EEC) you could travel within Benelux without any border checks. Over 90% of European countries have seen their borders change or have suffered invasion in the last 100 years.
I heard once although dont have link that boders as we have now (or before Schengen) were only introduced after WW1
 

Kf

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2003
Messages
274
No idea really what they are getting at here, many of the languages they have down as separate as just another language. Northing to do with linguistics at all.

They have some makeyup langauge called Transnistrian - which is just Russian spoke by the Slavs of Moldova. Another group of people called Aromanians look like they are resident in about 20% of Albanian when they only make up about 0.05% of the population.

As for the Balkan peninsula - whats going on there? In western europe the minorities are mapped out within the internationally recognised borders. Now look at their borders for Albanian (includes Kosovo), Romania (looks like the Hungarian speaking areas are soverign countries). According to their map Novi Sad in Northern Serbia is independent, chunks of Macedonia has been assigned to Serbia, Bulgaria and Albania. Montenegro has shrunk and there seems to be a new country on the coastline between Turkey and Greece.

This map looks like it was draw by a least three different people who never spoke to each other about the definition of a minority, a language and how these would be represented on a map. Dreadfully misleading piece of work.
 

FloatingVoterTralee

Well-known member
Joined
May 8, 2009
Messages
997
From the distribution of the "Aromanians", my hunch is that it's the website's label for the Roma, but yes, it's far from clear.
 

Toland

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
64,133
Website
www.aggressive-secularist.com
You do know that Valencia was a kingdom distinct from Catalonia. Valencian and Catalan are two different languages as they have a different origin and a different linguistic evolution throughout many centuries in different social-linguistic, political-cultural and geographical spaces. However, it is obvious that all the Neo-Latin Iberian languages have a high degree of similarities and seem much alike.

The ancient Valencian language was spoken by the Roman-Iberian people and their descendants who continued living in the Valencian territories after the conquest of the Roman-Gothic Hispania by the Moors.
Valencian is recognised even by its guardians as a dialect of Catalan.

Valencian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The main differences between the Valencians and the Catalans are political.
 

Riadach

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2007
Messages
12,847

Dadaist

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
13,788
While the history of Valencia is different from that of Catalonia, that is also true of the Balearic Islands and of Roussillon (the bit that's been part of France since Louis XIV). Ethnologue (Catalán | Ethnologue), a standard source, regards Valencian as a dialect of Catalan, as does Wikipedia (Valencian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
They are both recognised as seperate official languages by the the Spanish state. I think I'll take their interpetation over Wikipidea's.
 

New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top