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Anarchist Bookfair


Seanie Lemass

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On tomorrow all day in Liberty Hall. Great place to pick up books and a few interesting debates and stuff on as well. I would be an anarchist were it not for my world weary cynicism :(
 

meriwether

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Would they be receptive to my pro-austerity viewpoint?

I might go along actually. I picked up some hardcore revolutionary literature when I was in Cuba recently, I may as well keep going along this path to anarcho-communism.
 

pragmaticapproach

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On tomorrow all day in Liberty Hall. Great place to pick up books and a few interesting debates and stuff on as well. I would be an anarchist were it not for my world weary cynicism :(
Anarcho capitalism?





[video=youtube;JGKxp5nc1L8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGKxp5nc1L8[/video]
 

Seanie Lemass

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Well they would listen to you anyway! Definitely the most tolerant people on the left :)
 

pragmaticapproach

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Well they would listen to you anyway! Definitely the most tolerant people on the left :)
But the most reality averse. Im no fan of anarchism whether its left or right, (Im more of a classical liberal/libertarian minarchist) but at least the Ancaps understand economics.
 

Seanie Lemass

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But the most reality averse. Im no fan of anarchism whether its left or right, (Im more of a classical liberal/libertarian minarchist) but at least the Ancaps understand economics.
I don't know. I think there is a lot of merit in decentralised self-goverance and economic organisation. Especially in the light of the craziness illustrated in the story about the hidden bank accounts.

My reading of history, however, would make me sceptical of any 'revolution' to bring that about not becoming mired in the horrors we have seen before.
 

sauntersplash

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I've been meaning to go to one of these for years, but I can never get around to organising myself. Badum!

Are the books cheap?
 

Seanie Lemass

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Most of the stuff is second hand including a lot of books you would not see anywhere else. You can get some real finds in fact. There are also first hand books and a variety of journals and newspapers and pamphlets and stuff. For anarchists it is well organised!
 
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Dylan2010

I don't know. I think there is a lot of merit in decentralised self-goverance and economic organisation. Especially in the light of the craziness illustrated in the story about the hidden bank accounts.

My reading of history, however, would make me sceptical of any 'revolution' to bring that about not becoming mired in the horrors we have seen before.
which is why the Ancap version of it based on property rights is the only version of it that wouldnt end up in massive bloodshed and tyranny from the start.
 

Seanie Lemass

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which is why the Ancap version of it based on property rights is the only version of it that wouldnt end up in massive bloodshed and tyranny from the start.

Depends on what you mean by 'property'. 'Private property' on the scale of the Russian oligarchs or the multi billion secret ban accounts is as anti social and as much a threat to freedom as total state ownership.

Most anarchists would have no problem with people having small holdings and small businesses with a co-opertive element. Although they'd have never called themselves such, the original Provos and 'Eire Nua' was very close to classical anarchism both in its politcal and economic aspects.
 

Seanie Lemass

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which is why the Ancap version of it based on property rights is the only version of it that wouldnt end up in massive bloodshed and tyranny from the start.

To be honest, I don't know enough about Ancap to talk about it, but if you are talking about small-scale property then not only is it similar to the anarchist view, but would also involve a redistribution of existing property! Or would it? I don't know.
 
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Dylan2010

To be honest, I don't know enough about Ancap to talk about it, but if you are talking about small-scale property then not only is it similar to the anarchist view, but would also involve a redistribution of existing property! Or would it? I don't know.
Ancap wouldnt take private property off anyone. Kerry group would still be Kerry group although some of the statist protection might fall away. The alternative is that you come in with guns blazing
 

pragmaticapproach

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which is why the Ancap version of it based on property rights is the only version of it that wouldnt end up in massive bloodshed and tyranny from the start.
I think anarcho capitalism makes for an interesting thought experiment, hence the reason I brought it up, but I think it is ultimately flawed although not to the extent as left anarchism.
 

Seanie Lemass

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Ancap wouldnt take private property off anyone. Kerry group would still be Kerry group although some of the statist protection might fall away. The alternative is that you come in with guns blazing


Then what control would you have over huge corporations becoming fuedal like entities?

Surely if it is naive to beleive that 'the state' or 'the party' would not act in a tyrannous manner in order to protect its own interests, it is equally naive to believe that the Abramovichs of this world would not take advantage of the the situation you describe?

The reason the state came to interfere in the economy and society was as a function of the growth of democracy and the demand to curb unbridled political and economic power.
 
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Dylan2010

I think anarcho capitalism makes for an interesting thought experiment, hence the reason I brought it up, but I think it is ultimately flawed although not to the extent as left anarchism.
You could possibly view it as the only ethical political viewpoint to hold as it doesnt rely on coercion, anything else is on the scale of being a little bit pregnant. That being said if could be your ethical backdrop to inform how a state or constitution can go wrong thus allowing enough firewalls can be built in to stop a classical Liberal society becoming a tyrannical state.
 

pragmaticapproach

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Then what control would you have over huge corporations becoming fuedal like entities?

Surely if it is naive to beleive that 'the state' or 'the party' would not act in a tyrannous manner in order to protect its own interests, it is equally naive to believe that the Abramovichs of this world would not take advantage of the the situation you describe?

The reason the state came to interfere in the economy and society was as a function of the growth of democracy and the demand to curb unbridled political and economic power.
The Ancap, and indeed the broader right libertarian view, is that the state enables monopolies, by imposing strict regulatory requirements and by other means which effectively create barriers to entry for smaller competitors who cannot afford to comply with the regulatory burden.
 
D

Dylan2010

Then what control would you have over huge corporations becoming fuedal like entities?

Surely if it is naive to beleive that 'the state' or 'the party' would not act in a tyrannous manner in order to protect its own interests, it is equally naive to believe that the Abramovichs of this world would not take advantage of the the situation you describe?

The reason the state came to interfere in the economy and society was as a function of the growth of democracy and the demand to curb unbridled political and economic power.
normally its because these clowns are gifted monopolies. A "Tesco" only has power because I cant buy a warehouse and setup in business in the morning because state planners would tell me I cant.
 

pragmaticapproach

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You could possibly view it as the only ethical political viewpoint to hold as it doesnt rely on coercion, anything else is on the scale of being a little bit pregnant. That being said if could be your ethical backdrop to inform how a state or constitution can go wrong thus allowing enough firewalls can be built in to stop a classical Liberal society becoming a tyrannical state.
Im not a "natural rights" type, I would view all rights as being merely constructs,(ie I wouldnt view taxation as theft) although I believe it should be limited and subject to competitive pressures, similar to the present day Swiss system.

I would subscribe more to the Hayakean view(consequentialist) as supposed to the Rothbardian one(natural rights). You could say im a classical liberal de-centralist.
 

Seanie Lemass

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The Ancap, and indeed the broader right libertarian view, is that the state enables monopolies, by imposing strict regulatory requirements and by other means which effectively create barriers to entry for smaller competitors who cannot afford to comply with the regulatory burden.


That is not historically true. In fact the state had to intervene in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to break the power of the 'trusts'.

And in an earlier period the proto-modern state - usually based around a monarchy - emerged in order to break the power of fuedal barons who could do they pleased because they controlled large amounts of economic assets and therefore were able to employ force on a large scale to get what they wanted.

Unfortunately, anarchism of either the capitalist or left version would be more likely to resemble The Road rather than The Little House on the Prairie.
 
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