And our retail numbers go from bad to worse.

gerhard dengler

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Sure it's hardly surprising the month on month increase from November to December in stuff like department store goods in December with Christmas on the way and the increase in bars is unsurprising given the massive upsurge pubs experience as soon as the month of December begins. In pubs in Dublin City Centre at weekends in the run up to Christmas you can't even get a standing space.
It is my recollection that at the weekends during December 2012 that the pubs and restaurants in Dublin City centre were busier than weekends normally.

Cumulatively though the figures for all trade in December 2012 was lower than all trade in November 2012.

You'd expect that under normal circumstances December would show an improvement on November.
 


Keith-M

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It is my recollection that at the weekends during December 2012 that the pubs and restaurants in Dublin City centre were busier than weekends normally.

Cumulatively though the figures for all trade in December 2012 was lower than all trade in November 2012.

You'd expect that under normal circumstances December would show an improvement on November.
I do not recall any December being lower than a November in terms of retail spending.
 

gerhard dengler

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I do not recall any December being lower than a November in terms of retail spending.

Aye, normally you could find that people "spare themselves" in November, to allow them spend in December, which would see an improvement measured on a month on month basis.
 

SPN

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I wonder how much of these exports is money that washes into Ireland and goes back out on the next tide with no gain for us.
Maybe so.

But what about the rest? The export income that feeds every family in Ireland, directly or indirectly? The export income that funds 70% of government expenditure?

Where else do you think the money comes from?
 

The Old Woman

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Hello !

Have you a link for this.... or are you just going to try to slip it in there ?

So it's Government policy to completely kill the domestic economy ? Strange one that !


Yes it is.

The failure by taxud to review the Vat grouping directive in the context of the market, brand ownership, the behavior of the Uk as not being in the Euro yet supplying into ireland where they own the rights of product or supply and are determining the euro price into ireland. For Europe to concede this needs to be looked at means - they must concede that domestic supply chains have been effected, that this procedure has eroded core domestic exchequer returns and that competition as it is espoused by the great and good of Europe was not given.

Hell would freeze over before the Commission would admit it got it wrong. They care little of the lives and employment destroyed so they csan save face.

what is most concerning is the top echelon of the civil service who we pay to work for us - follow the dicta of Europe - so instead of sueing Europe for a flawed directive - we sentence our domestic supply chain to the wilderness - giving the spoils to out-side interests -

It galls me to think we borrowed to pay our esteemed civil service to provide this service.

I could paper a room with the number of public representatives and civil servants who didnt know what the vat grouping directive was - these would be civil servants whoes work is in part or whole in this area.

When you meet this lack of knowledge it is very easy to see how the government has contributed to the destruction of the domestic economy.

Why would our legislators or civil service care they get paid any way.
 

Taxi Driver

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Sure it's hardly surprising the month on month increase from November to December in stuff like department store goods in December with Christmas on the way and the increase in bars is unsurprising given the massive upsurge pubs experience as soon as the month of December begins. In pubs in Dublin City Centre at weekends in the run up to Christmas you can't even get a standing space.
It is my recollection that at the weekends during December 2012 that the pubs and restaurants in Dublin City centre were busier than weekends normally.

Cumulatively though the figures for all trade in December 2012 was lower than all trade in November 2012.

You'd expect that under normal circumstances December would show an improvement on November.
The figures produced by the CSO are adjusted for seasonal trends and also for the number of trading days in each month.

There are unadjusted figures on their website.

November 2012: 89.7
December 2012: 113.1

There was a 26% increase in retail sales between November and December but reporting that would be pretty pointless as such an increase is expected to happen.
 

Analyzer

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Waiting for a well fed pluotcrat who is also a former bank director tell us all that the retail numbers will improve if we keep throwing billions of euro at the Anglo Bondholders....
 

goosebump

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gerhard dengler

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The figures produced by the CSO are adjusted for seasonal trends and also for the number of trading days in each month.

There are unadjusted figures on their website.

November 2012: 89.7
December 2012: 113.1

There was a 26% increase in retail sales between November and December but reporting that would be pretty pointless as such an increase is expected to happen.
Despite 26% month on month improvement that you allude to, the overall figure for December 2012 remains below November 2012 figure.
 

Taxi Driver

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Despite 26% month on month improvement that you allude to, the overall figure for December 2012 remains below November 2012 figure.
No, it is the adjusted figure that is unchanged.

November 2012: 89.0
December 2012: 89.1

The unadjusted and adjusted figures mean that there was a 26% rise in retail sales between November and December but that such an increase is almost what is expected to happen anyway so the reported figure is that there was no change in retail sales (relative to what was expected to happen).
 

The Old Woman

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Do the figures include online purchases, mostly from abroad?
Your asking the wrong question there.

How can the figures - have online purchases from abroad - when outside companies dont have to register for vat here until their sales exceed 35K.

It is interesting wording they must register - I am sure they rush to do so. Europe has attempted to "sort" this matter out by making companies return "vies" but there is no conhesive follow up on this - for instance why would the UK - who has numberous companies direct selling inwards in ireland push for registration when until vat registration they are benefiting from vat returns. Remenber in the case of online sales into ireland corporations, and tax does not feed into the irish exchequer.

The civil service failed to provide a cohesive counter to this delemna yet this has been a growing problem for some time - they have known of it, they have buried their heads in pro european doctrine - and in so doing lost valuable time to counter this danger

If we put a man in jail for failing to pay the correct vat on garlic - why do we not put employees of the state in jail who apply legilation that costs the taxpayer mutliples of multiples of euro in corporation, tax and vat?
 

Howya

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Correct.

There was a lot of talk throughout P.ie about how busy retail outlets appeared to be during December 2012.

If there is a sliver of light it's "If Motor Trades are excluded, the volume of retail sales increased by 0.8% in December 2012 when compared with November 2012 and there was also an annual increase of 0.8%",
which translates to - retail was flat all year apart from a small up tick in December.
 

The Old Woman

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It applies to all companies not just outside ones. Also it is 75 000 for those supplying goods. The figure for services is 37 500 for services. VAT Registration FAQs
It applies to companies importing( those outside into us) or exporting( us out) - ( not to all companies trading) the difference with online businesses they are supplying end user and the end user is generally not a business filing tax returns - domestic businesses must apply vat from day one. when I checked last year the Revenue informed the figure was 35K for goods - accordingly this figure must since have been increased - given the effect of distance selling inwards 75K is quite amazing.

lets put this in context.

an isalnd nation of 3.5 people will have per size a limited per capita of population of businesses who online distance selling outwards. Bigger nations in the EU like the UK population 60 million will have approx 10 times our capacity( as a rule in our business 10 times Uk sales is what is used - don't ask me why)
lets say there are 100 irish companies distance selling out wards then there is 1000 selling inwards to us - 1000 x 75K before having to register. - this then supposes that they all register when in truth some will never and others will only when "found"

Thats alot out of the domestic economy - that gives no return to the exchequer - none. it takes from domestic sells which is then a indirect cost to the exchequer.


The 100 companies outward selling is likely to be low and the 1000 inwards is likely to also be low. These figures account for the UK want to calculate in all other counties within Europe - then factor in those outside the EU ( different terms apply here)


a two year old child would have worked out that small economies like ireland were at risk on the vat grouping directive and on the regulation on distance selling inwards. It left us vunderable on exchequer returns and unable to provide sugfficent domestic businesses distance selling outwards to pick up the slack of the effect inwards.

The Department of Finance should be asked repeatedly to explain distance selling inwards , the regulations and the vat grouping directive. Our esteemed top echelon civil servants should be asked to produce the risk accessment complied on these figures. - Our MEPs past and present should be asked to explain why concessions on a small nation like Ireland was not provided for, etc etc

Factor in the vat grouping directive that is used by big business, factor in brand ownership when it applies to a country who is not in the Euro. The UK our biggest trade partner -people concentrate on outwards when speaking about the UK - they tend not to consider what actually the UK are extracting from Ireland.


The independant retail supply chain has never had a chance against this - never. Irish MNC have been feeling the effect in recent years - it is only a matter of time for this sector - then the landscape is totally changed.

what irks me is the failure to highlight this is resulting in irish small businesses being formed that can never never never reach potential. have we learnt nothing - wouldnt it be far better if these enterpenuers were putting their talents to businesses that can
provide potential -
 
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Dublin 4

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Funny how not one of these car sale excluding adjusters want to include the Northern Riot Refugees... :oops:
 

The Old Woman

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The real economy - the one that earns money - is fine. Exports continue to grow.

What is in trouble is the discretionary economy, because there is little to no new credit going into the economy to fund sales of faff.

If we want a sustainable economy in the future, then we should be focusing on developing new and innovative businesses in the real economy. That's how we earn the money to fund the lifestyles we want to live.

The discretionary economy is a distraction and a waste of time, energy and resources.
The real economy - the one that earns money - is fine.


Even if one was to suppose you were correct - - the real economy as you term it - has to be under pressure because it is expected to service domestic debt that is supporting bubble times economies.
 

turdsl

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Some fella on TV tells us we are stabilizing but still a bit on the negative side.

With this kind of bull are those guys succeeding in fooling us or are they making

idiots out of themselves as well.
 

EmmettTCorcoran

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Retail is largely suffering due to online purchases, which I'm not sure if this Accounts for or not- however I doubt it does...
In the states- you have a situation where the likes of best buy have just become show rooms for ebay and amazon... I fear that regardless of economic development, this is a rowing trend we'll continue to see for ever- not that improving consumer confidence wouldn't obviously be a help, but the over all economic approach to retail is changing...
 


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