Angela -- Frau Merkel

olli rehn

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On the asylum issue... le Chaim put it in a nutshell to the effect of saying: Should asylum be granted at all?
It's a tough question to answer. The Germans have been dealing with this question for longer than most people think.
Interestingly the word for someone seeking refuge has undergone quite a few name-changes over the decades... over the centuries.
The Hugeonots who fled France for Britain and Germany were termed emigrants because of religious persecution.
The Irish were during the famine were called immigrants.
World war one, i.e. and the establishment of the Red Cross brought the term refugee.
The authorities after World war two which caused much more upheaval used the term "Displaced Persons".
The UN charter on human rights used the term asylum-seekers.
It's interesting why the term keeps changing. Travellers and African Americans have also gone through several name-changes.

The German constitution granted an automatic right to people seeking asylum during the cold war. That public personalities such as sportsmen authors musicians would flee socialism was a powerful propaganda coup against the Warsaw pact countries.
In the 1990's Eric Honecker in the German Democratic Republic hit upon the ingenious response. He allowed the war refugees from Ceylon (Sri Lanka) to land in East Berlin and he let them travel on to West Berlin. I'm sure he cackled to watch the friction develop with the native Germans as 1,000, 2,000 .... 20,000 asylum seekers accumulated in the West.
Willi Brandt, the Prez of the SPD who himself had been an asylum seeker in Sweden during the Nazi period was adamant that the asylum rule should stay in the constitution.
I recall that at one stage this group of black African men applied for Asylum in Bavaria. The local official enquired as to their names. The first answered that his name was "JIM Beam", the second "Johnny Walker" and the third "Flavoured Ice Cube"
They were really taking the piss out of the Krauts.
Long story short, the Germans ended up changing their constitution to exclude those asylum-seekers who came from a safe country... and that included all countries bordering Germany: Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Lux, France Czechia and Poland.

But this phase of the story might have caused discomfort and irritation to the German public... and much mirth to the east Germans. There was no terror organization.
What changes the game completely is that now there are the smugglers who bring the people to Europe for financial gain, and also there is the terror organizations who try to destabelize the host country.
It's also the age of the internet, smart phone and kalashnikov.

In my view the clash of govt and Isis and the smugglers will bring surveillance state.
Well it's here already if what Snowden says is true.

Incidentally. If the west were to abolish or curtain the right to asylum it would mean other third world nations would follow suit and use the west's actions as a justification.
Not good.
On the other hand, there are 60-70 million displaced persons ... and a few hundred million young men in restrictive societies in search of adventure and money...
Can the west really supply bed and board and education and lawyers and court processes and medical and dental to all the new arrivals?
It's going to be expensive and there will be friction with the lower social orders.

End of rant
That is not quite correct.
The incident happened in the 80s- not the 90s. It was a Soviet plot to destabilize Westberlin. The Soviets advertised cheap flights in Sri Lanka from Colombo to East Berlin. Thousands of Tamils sold their last possessions to buy an Aeroflot ticket. On arrival in Schoenefeld they were all transported to the nearest subway running towards the West. Thousands of those people flooded into Westberlin for several days. I remember them being rounded up like cattle and brought to a huge field. The government of Westberlin had to fly them all back to Sri Lanka at its own expense. The Tamils ended up pennyless in Colombo- the Soviets had taken all their money and used them as pawns in the Cold War.
 
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Shpake

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That is not quite correct.
The incident happened in the 80s- not the 90s. It was a Soviet plot to destabilize Westberlin. The Soviets advertised cheap flights in Sri Lanka from Colombo to East Berlin. Thousands of Tamils sold their last possessions to buy an Aeroflot ticket. On arrival in Schoenefeld they were all transported to the nearest subway running towards the West. Thousands of those people flooded into Westberlin for several days. I remember them being rounded up like cattle and brought to a huge field. The government of Westberlin had to fly them all back to Sri Lanka at its own expense. The Tamils ended up pennyless in Colombo- the Soviets had taken all their money and used them as pawns in the Cold War.
Can't say that I know the full story, but I would ask you to double check on the timing. I can remember that I was on location there say about 1991, 1992 when this was taking place. Not necessarily to do soley with Tamil Sri Lankas... but it included them. I believe the gentlemen in question who hit the German headlines were mercenaries from Ghadaffi's Libya or so the press-rumour went.
This was in the days before the internet but the journal I used to read was called the Abendzeitung.

Here's something to test your German legalese: It relates to 1993, so my timing is pretty much spot on.
Neuregelung des Asylrechts 1993[Bearbeiten | Quelltext bearbeiten]
Nach einem sprunghaften Anstieg der Asylbewerber in den späten 1980er und frühen 1990er Jahren[10] sowie nach heftiger öffentlicher Debatte im Jahr 1993 wurde das bis dahin schrankenlos gewährte Asylgrundrecht aus Art. 16 Abs. 2 Satz 2 GG herausgenommen und nach Art. 16a Abs. 1 GG übertragen. In die vier folgenden Absätze sind die im Asylkompromiss beschlossenen Einschränkungen eingearbeitet worden:

Ausländer, welche über einen Staat der Europäischen Union oder einen sonstigen sicheren Drittstaat einreisen, können sich nicht auf das Asylrecht berufen (Art. 16a Abs. 2 GG).
Bei bestimmten Herkunftsstaaten (sog. sichere Herkunftsstaaten) kann vermutet werden, dass dort keine politische Verfolgung stattfindet, solange der Asylbewerber diese Vermutung nicht entkräftet (Art. 16a Abs. 3 GG).
Der Rechtsschutz wurde eingeschränkt (Art. 16a Abs. 4 GG).
Letztlich kann das deutsche Asylgrundrecht dadurch eingeschränkt oder ausgeschlossen werden, dass ein anderer Staat im Rahmen europäischer Zuständigkeitsvereinbarungen für die Schutzgewähr des Asylbewerbers zuständig ist und der Asylbewerber, ohne dass sein Asylantrag in der Sache geprüft wird, dorthin verwiesen wird.
Die Anerkennungsquote nach Art. 16a GG ist entsprechend gering und lag zwischen 2002 und Mitte 2013 bei unter 2 %.[11]
source de.wikipedia.org
 

Shpake

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Germany's Gabriel Says EU Break-up No Longer Unthinkable | Fortune.com

Germany’s Gabriel Says EU Break-up No Longer Unthinkable
Reuters

Updated: Jan 07, 2017 3:06 PM GMT
Germany's insistence on austerity in the euro zone has left Europe more divided than ever and a break-up of the European Union is no longer inconceivable, German Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel told Der Spiegel magazine.
Gabriel, whose Social Democrats (SPD) are junior partner to Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives in her ruling grand coalition, said strenuous efforts by countries like France and Italy to reduce their fiscal deficits came with political risks.
"I once asked the chancellor, what would be more costly for Germany: for France to be allowed to have half a percentage point more deficit, or for Marine Le Pen to become president?" he said, referring to the leader of the far-right National Front.
"Until today, she still owes me an answer," added Gabriel, whose SPD favours a greater focus on investment while Merkel's conservatives put more emphasis on fiscal discipline as a foundation for economic prosperity.
I have to say that this hit me for six. Came as a shock like something you might here that your parents are breaking up. I suppose the EU or EEC has been around so long that you think it's something permanent. Well it was in the days when I was impressionable and striking out alone in life. It was a time of hope and optimism and where there was a generosity of spirit and willingness to compromise. The Great Financial Crisis, Euro and Brexit has put paid to that and now compromise is probably viewed by many member states as weakness or stupidity.
Shame to see the EU on the rocks. (Many here will disagree no doubt)

Then it could be interpreted as a shot across the bows to Angela Merkel.
Siegmar Gabriel is the head of the SPD equivalent of the labour party and this is election year in Germany. Lots of time to go until October... but who knows what's going on there. He might think that Angela is going to pull a snap election... and so simply wants to motivate the electioneering troops and also to profile himself as the alternative.
But I'm only speculating.. .Toland is there in situ... he might know what the dogs in the street are saying.
 

olli rehn

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Can't say that I know the full story, but I would ask you to double check on the timing. I can remember that I was on location there say about 1991, 1992 when this was taking place. Not necessarily to do soley with Tamil Sri Lankas... but it included them. I believe the gentlemen in question who hit the German headlines were mercenaries from Ghadaffi's Libya or so the press-rumour went.
This was in the days before the internet but the journal I used to read was called the Abendzeitung.

Here's something to test your German legalese: It relates to 1993, so my timing is pretty much spot on.


source de.wikipedia.org
I think it is you who has to double check. Honecker was removed from power in Autumn 1989. The GDR collapsed months later. There was no GDR or Honecker anymore in the years you mentioned.
Nothing wrong with the change of the asylum seeker laws in Germany after the events.
 

Shpake

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I think it is you who has to double check. Honecker was removed from power in Autumn 1989. The GDR collapsed months later. There was no GDR or Honecker anymore in the years you mentioned.
Nothing wrong with the change of the asylum seeker laws in Germany after the events.
Yes you are right on that about Honecker. The wall came down in 1990 I think. (How the years fly!) But I was in Germany in 1992 and I can recall the personalities discussing the growing nr of asylum seekers there. There was a kind of tug of war going on. The CSU/CDU government demanded the support of the SPD to change the constitution so as to restrict asylum seekers. This was refused as Willi Brandt was an idealist who would not give way. The CDU/CSU responded by distributing the more "culturally diverse" applicants... i.e. Blacks, Muslims, Young men etc. to the regions under SPD local administration. This nettled the SPD who saw it as unfair. Out of protest the SPD mayor of Munich housed an asylum settlement of converted freight containers on the Octoberfest grounds. That hit the headlines all right.
 

Wagmore

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You're spot on, Shpake, it's electioneering.
Still can't see EU surviving though. Has lost the run of itself.Probably always had but geo-political developments have exposed epic ineptitude at its core.It's globalist agenda has been rumbled and sane people have decided it's time to jump off the runaway train
 

mr_anderson

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Trump says Merkel made 'catastrophic mistake' on migrants


"If you look at the European Union, it's Germany - it's basically a vehicle for Germany," he said.


"I think she made one very catastrophic mistake and that was taking all of these illegals."

He linked the migrant issue with the UK referendum vote to leave the EU.

"I do believe this, if they (EU countries) hadn't been forced to take in all of the refugees, so many, with all the problems that it . . . entails, I think that you wouldn't have a Brexit.

"It probably could have worked out but this was the final straw, this was the final straw that broke the camel's back."
Donald Trump says Merkel made 'catastrophic mistake' on migrants - BBC News


The Donald doesn't mince his words.
Says what we all know.
Pity other leaders are not as forthright.
 
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sic transit

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Mrwoody

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The Germans are angry with the donalds remarks so im happy with the donald for once.
 

johnny365

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Yep love the way Brexit was caused by refugees! More of that please!
Immigration was a big issue in the UK in the Refurendum campaign, it would not be unreasonable to suggest that Merkels actions in discarding Asylum law and taking millions of immigrants from Africa and the Middle East had an effect on the vote.
 

Shpake

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Trump says Merkel made 'catastrophic mistake' on migrants



Donald Trump says Merkel made 'catastrophic mistake' on migrants - BBC News


The Donald doesn't mince his words.
Says what we all know.
Pity other leaders are not as forthright.
Germany Slams Trump Criticism: Urges US To "Build Better Cars", Accuses Washington Of Causing Refugee Crisis | Zero Hedge
For your background reading there's a fairly robust reply from Sigmar Gabriel, who is Angela Merkel's SPD coalition partner.
He certainly hits the ball back into the Americans' court on this one:
Basically saying that the flood of refugees is (partly? totally?) due to the American 4n policy over there in the Middle East: Invading Iraq and such
{And here I no bucker all about what I'm talking about. Iraq is Iraq and Syria is Syria and Isis seems all over the place including Libya. And talking on Libya: The Americans, I think stood up and started blaming Sarkozy for stirring up the civil war in Libya for purely egoistical reasons such as influence and arms sales there.... or so I recall reading a few months back.

But to Sigmar Gabriel's reply. It was well done I think.
Nonetheless I'm of the opinion that Angela Merkel did not choose the best way of solving the refugee crisis.
He also talks about Donald's coming trade frictions/war with the rest of the world.
 

sic transit

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Immigration was a big issue in the UK in the Refurendum campaign, it would not be unreasonable to suggest that Merkels actions in discarding Asylum law and taking millions of immigrants from Africa and the Middle East had an effect on the vote.
It was actually EU migrants working, and legally entitled to do so that was at the root of it. The beatific Farage and his cohort just tacked on the extra furriners.
 
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sic transit

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Germany Slams Trump Criticism: Urges US To "Build Better Cars", Accuses Washington Of Causing Refugee Crisis | Zero Hedge
For your background reading there's a fairly robust reply from Sigmar Gabriel, who is Angela Merkel's SPD coalition partner.
He certainly hits the ball back into the Americans' court on this one:
Basically saying that the flood of refugees is (partly? totally?) due to the American 4n policy over there in the Middle East: Invading Iraq and such
{And here I no bucker all about what I'm talking about. Iraq is Iraq and Syria is Syria and Isis seems all over the place including Libya. And talking on Libya: The Americans, I think stood up and started blaming Sarkozy for stirring up the civil war in Libya for purely egoistical reasons such as influence and arms sales there.... or so I recall reading a few months back.

But to Sigmar Gabriel's reply. It was well done I think.
Nonetheless I'm of the opinion that Angela Merkel did not choose the best way of solving the refugee crisis.
He also talks about Donald's coming trade frictions/war with the rest of the world.
Ford aside, which is really a European car maker in terms of models, there's barely an American car that would make it onto a forecourt never mind get sold anywhere in this part of the world. The point he makes about international supply chains is one of those unintended consequences raising its ugly head.
 

sic transit

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The Germans are angry with the donalds remarks so im happy with the donald for once.
Nah, not angry, just pointing out the holes in his conclusions.
 

Elvis jaffacake

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The Germans are angry with the donalds remarks so im happy with the donald for once.
Are they?
I don't think you've ever seen an angry German yet...
 

Shpake

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It was actually EU migrants working, and legally entitled to do so that was at the root of it. The beatific Farage and his cohort just tacked on the extra furriners.
I'm kind of doubtful at that. Most of the East Europeans I've encountered in Irl were pretty OK.... so it has me mystified that East Europeans holding down jobs were the major factor in Britains's decision to "Brexit".
I would (in my own imagination) surmise that it could have been the irritations that had built up by officials and meeja people (meejits) intruding on peoples' lives with their dicats on "politically correct" behaviour.
The concentration of radical Islam in certain towns, such as Luton did nothing to calm the waters and then there was that hate-preacher in the big mosque in London who for a long time it appeared it was impossible to deport him.
I can recall London in the days before radical Islam took off and it seemed to me then that the Muslims were set on a course for success. Nothing against the poor "door-keys" but it seemed to me that many of them didn't seem able to hack it, unless in music or sport. The gypsies, well why should I point them out? Ár buachaillí féin, the Irish travellers had developed a reputation for themselves too.

From what I recall, the groups where Brexit found most resonance were:
Those living outside greater London;
The older sections of society;
The staunch conservative elements who wanted parliament's sovereignty restored.
Yes there was the anti foreigner element....
But it's not easy to quantify these things ... in an opinion survey I can imagine punters not wanting to give their overriding reason, say for instance if they didn't want to appear politically uncorrect, for example.
 
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BACKTOBASICS

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Are they?
I don't think you've ever seen an angry German yet...
Not now anyway - Merkel has turned them into grovelling wimps afraid to stand up for their womenfolk attacked, murdered, raped and groped on German streets by sex-mad islamic (lower case purposely) thugs. The German police stood idly by too while this was going on, and saw nothing.

Even Merkel, I'm sad to say, who is a woman (I presume) has more balls than the menfolk.

An example of that was a man whose daughter was raped, murdered and dumped in a river by one of these islamic thugs, still could not bring himself to cry out for justice for his daughter, and practically apologised for the 'hardship' her killer was going through - for god's sake.
 
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