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Angela Kerins resigns as head of rehab


Baron von Biffo

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There was no legal obligation on him to answer any questions at any point. But, you question what is the point in showing up and wasting everyone's time if you are just going to stonewall the way he did. You might as well just refuse to attend. So, the AK judgement which he cited, gave him an amount of cover, together with his "legal advice" such that he could say he would just love to co-operate, but he simply can't. It's all about having some kind of story, and selling it to the public.
I hope I'm not doing you a disservice here but it looks very much as though you have a dislike for Kerins and Delaney which is clouding your judgement on this issue.

Suppose for a moment the gardaí arrived at your home and said they were going to search it, would you demand to see a warrant? If they arrested you and charged you with an offence, would you insist on due process and legal representation in court?

Of course you would because you're not a moron. Why then make disparaging reference to Delaney's legal advice and why use the pejorative 'cover' for his assertion of his legal rights?

To address your question about why he attended; I would have done exactly the same. Had he not attended he would have exposed himself to criticism that he was somehow snubbing the state. By attending and asserting his legal rights he was facilitating the committee in its legitimate business but refusing to be bullied when it strayed beyond its lawful limits.

This is why we rejected Howlin's attempt to set politicians up as judge, jury and executioner over us.
 


Lumpy Talbot

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No
So what is the right avenue for holding people who head organisations in receipt of public money annually, to principles of transparency and governance?

because from where I'm sitting many of the people who practice evasion before any attempt at transparency and governance seem to have an ally in a deliberately spiked environment.

All you need to know about the attitude to governance in Ireland (still unreformed since) was contained in the story of David Drumm. A hugely underqualified wide-boy who managed somehow to evade the despairing clutches of Ireland's Garda Siochana by way of cunningly booking a flight and driving to the airport, then turned up in Massachusetts and hung out a shingle as a consultant in property finance, only to be shocked to find out you actually have to be registered to do that in the States and signed up to governance regulations. Down came the shingle and then came the blatant bullshyte to the Massachusett's courts which he would quite likely have got away with in Ireland, only to be sent on a course on how to balance a budget and then held in jail.

Shot through with every move and at every turn was the attempt at fitting Irish regulatory principles to US law- and it failed miserably outside Ireland.
 

Orbit v2

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I hope I'm not doing you a disservice here but it looks very much as though you have a dislike for Kerins and Delaney which is clouding your judgement on this issue.

Suppose for a moment the gardaí arrived at your home and said they were going to search it, would you demand to see a warrant? If they arrested you and charged you with an offence, would you insist on due process and legal representation in court?

Of course you would because you're not a moron. Why then make disparaging reference to Delaney's legal advice and why use the pejorative 'cover' for his assertion of his legal rights?

To address your question about why he attended; I would have done exactly the same. Had he not attended he would have exposed himself to criticism that he was somehow snubbing the state. By attending and asserting his legal rights he was facilitating the committee in its legitimate business but refusing to be bullied when it strayed beyond its lawful limits.

This is why we rejected Howlin's attempt to set politicians up as judge, jury and executioner over us.
Spare me the hysterical comparison. There's a big difference between being asked a few hard questions that have no legal consequence for you, and the gardai arriving at your house wanting to search it.
 

Baron von Biffo

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So what is the right avenue for holding people who head organisations in receipt of public money annually, to principles of transparency and governance?

because from where I'm sitting many of the people who practice evasion before any attempt at transparency and governance seem to have an ally in a deliberately spiked environment.

All you need to know about the attitude to governance in Ireland (still unreformed since) was contained in the story of David Drumm. A hugely underqualified wide-boy who managed somehow to evade the despairing clutches of Ireland's Garda Siochana by way of cunningly booking a flight and driving to the airport, then turned up in Massachusetts and hung out a shingle as a consultant in property finance, only to be shocked to find out you actually have to be registered to do that in the States and signed up to governance regulations. Down came the shingle and then came the blatant bullshyte to the Massachusett's courts which he would quite likely have got away with in Ireland, only to be sent on a course on how to balance a budget and then held in jail.

Shot through with every move and at every turn was the attempt at fitting Irish regulatory principles to US law- and it failed miserably outside Ireland.
Deficiencies in the regulatory and courts systems should be dealt with by making whatever changes are necessary in those systems.

Throwing citizens on the mercy of ignorant and feral Oireachtas members might have entertainment value but it certainly won't improve corporate governance.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Deficiencies in the regulatory and courts systems should be dealt with by making whatever changes are necessary in those systems.

Throwing citizens on the mercy of ignorant and feral Oireachtas members might have entertainment value but it certainly won't improve corporate governance.
Ah. I see the issue. Your note would suggest that reform follows governance issues as night follows day. Can you think of any regulatory or governance based reforms introduced in Ireland in order to combat the corruption and institutionalised looting we've seen covered in areas of public life in Ireland since 2007?
 

artfoley56

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Deficiencies in the regulatory and courts systems should be dealt with by making whatever changes are necessary in those systems.

Throwing citizens on the mercy of ignorant and feral Oireachtas members might have entertainment value but it certainly won't improve corporate governance.
spot on!

the Oireachtas committee should only come in after there's been a full investigation by those charged with upholding the law in these circumstances which in this case should be revenue, ODCE, AGS and CAB. when theyre done and the matter has been tried, then the goolahs can have their day.

furthermore, when youre getting public money there should be cast iron guarantees for the public through legal obligations with serious sanctions for those who fail to uphold those obligations.
 

Noble Guardian

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spot on!

the Oireachtas committee should only come in after there's been a full investigation by those charged with upholding the law in these circumstances which in this case should be revenue, ODCE, AGS and CAB. when theyre done and the matter has been tried, then the goolahs can have their day.
Indeed. We dispensed with the stocks some time ago.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Oh yes yes. Process is everything. Even where it is set up like a frayed highwire across Niagara.
 

Baron von Biffo

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Ah. I see the issue. Your note would suggest that reform follows governance issues as night follows day. Can you think of any regulatory or governance based reforms introduced in Ireland in order to combat the corruption and institutionalised looting we've seen covered in areas of public life in Ireland since 2007?
My post most certainly does not suggest that and I don't believe that anyone reading this in 2019 will live to see any real and proper reform of the way we do things here.

We're simply not a people of laws. We have no culture of law enforcement and we don't want to change. You need only look at the hysteria surrounding moves to apply the laws on learner permit drivers or drink drivers to see the truth of that.

But that doesn't mean that dragging people in front of an Oireachtas committee to demonise and degrade them is the right thing to do.
 

Baron von Biffo

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spot on!

the Oireachtas committee should only come in after there's been a full investigation by those charged with upholding the law in these circumstances which in this case should be revenue, ODCE, AGS and CAB. when theyre done and the matter has been tried, then the goolahs can have their day.
Quite.

Oireachtas committees aren't criminal investigators nor are they corporate governors. They should leave those areas to the institutions that are lawfully established to address them.

They should, as you say, come on stage after the appropriate authorities have done their job and their role should be to see what lessons are to be learned for public policy and what, if any changes to law or regulation are required.

furthermore, when youre getting public money there should be cast iron guarantees for the public through legal obligations with serious sanctions for those who fail to uphold those obligations.
I was for a number of years a director of a national charity that received the greater part of its funding from the state. It was always my view that we should have been so scrupulous in our dealings as to be able to leave our accounts open in the office window without fear of criticism.
 

leftsoc

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It should be interesting to see how quickly her name will pop up on several state quango boards...
But first the ritual appearance on Turbridy talking about her various travails being growth experiences, these travails being understood to have nothing to do with her actions but purely due to her exalted status and sucesss in the charity business . The taxpayers, 'the little people', will be put in their place, but they will never be mentioned directly, always being referred to by the technical term for such low-lifes among Ireland's great and good - they will be called the 'begrudgers'.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
My post most certainly does not suggest that and I don't believe that anyone reading this in 2019 will live to see any real and proper reform of the way we do things here.

We're simply not a people of laws. We have no culture of law enforcement and we don't want to change. You need only look at the hysteria surrounding moves to apply the laws on learner permit drivers or drink drivers to see the truth of that.

But that doesn't mean that dragging people in front of an Oireachtas committee to demonise and degrade them is the right thing to do.
We are a 'lace curtain' nation. We have the appearance of laws. Which apply only up to a certain strata of our society. Above that there is only PR for those who can afford.

Above a certain level you can check in to a private clinic for stress and engage the media as allies.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
The Secretary General of the Dept of Justice flew all the way to New York some years ago to explain that the state had no historical duty to regulate private organisations.

Only to be told by a UN Committee that he was talking through his hole and that under UN membership we had a duty to regulate both public and private organisations.

So if the Secretary General of the Dept of Justice is that badly informed or mistaken you can take it that not only the application but the understanding of legal obligations under Irish and international law is somewhat weary.
 

Baron von Biffo

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We are a 'lace curtain' nation. We have the appearance of laws. Which apply only up to a certain strata of our society. Above that there is only PR for those who can afford.

Above a certain level you can check in to a private clinic for stress and engage the media as allies.
If only it was that simple then it would be relatively easy to fix.

We have all the laws that other countries have but by and large we don't enforce them. And there's no public appetite to change that.

Take for example the traffic restrictions that applied around Trinity when the Luas works were underway. For weeks the gardaí opted for a softly softly approach and just re-directed drivers who contravened them. Then they moved to enforcement and what happened? We had absolute hysteria. The moaners were queueing up to phone Whineline and poor Duffy had a dreadful attack of the vapours over the injustice of it all.

Can you imagine a reaction like that in any other country? Can you imagine any other country where the police will detect you breaking the law, inform you that you're breaking the law and then allow you to continue breaking the law? Well that happens every day in Ireland with unaccompanied learner drivers. It will probably take a victim of an unaccompanied driver who was allowed to drive away from a checkpoint to sue the gardaí and/or the state to get that changed.

You want to build a house but know you won't get planning permission? build it anyway. In any other country you'd be forced to take it down. In Ireland you have to go through an administrative hoop called 'retention permission' and you'll get to keep it.

Housebreaking is your chosen career? No problem. Get caught doing it and for the first 50 or 60 times and you'll get a very stern talking to from a judge. After that you could be looking at a sentence of a few months. But even if you're convicted of 50 offences (and even if you did them while on bail) you'll serve your sentences concurrently so you have nothing to lose by more offending.

Can't be arsed paying your taxes? We have an Irish solution to that as well. Unlike other countries where that's a crime and you're treated like other criminals, in Ireland if you opt out of the tax system and you're caught it's extremely unlikely that you'll face anything worse than a few quid of a fine and possible embarrassment when your name appears in Swindlers list. In fact you could even get lucky and be rewarded for your criminality by getting a special tax rate that's lower than that applied to law abiding citizens.

This sort of stuff is endemic here and I can't see it changing unless closer EU integration forced us to deal with it.
 

Orbit v2

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John Delaney's silence is the fault of the Irish electorate

Good piece by David Gwynn Morgan which shows the sad history behind this issue and how it goes back to the Abbeylara judgement which was the first time the Supreme Court stuck its oar into parliamentary proceedings and started to regulate what TDs are allowed to say and what type of questions they are allowed to ask people in parliament. And of course, the one opportunity that the electorate had to reverse that situation, we rejected.
 

artfoley56

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John Delaney's silence is the fault of the Irish electorate

the one opportunity that the electorate had to reverse that situation, we rejected.
you mean the attempt by shatter to reverse Maguire Vs Ardagh, Shatter & ors?

the same judgement that shatter relied on to overturn the findings of the Guerin report?

then do you think about why the electorate didn't overturn the judgement? primarily, IMHO because we have law enforcement agencies to investigate these matters rather than having the braying yahoos in the dail make a total farce of it.
 

Baron von Biffo

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John Delaney's silence is the fault of the Irish electorate

Good piece by David Gwynn Morgan which shows the sad history behind this issue and how it goes back to the Abbeylara judgement which was the first time the Supreme Court stuck its oar into parliamentary proceedings and started to regulate what TDs are allowed to say and what type of questions they are allowed to ask people in parliament.
Gwynn-Morgan's article doesn't say what you claim it does because what you claim has no basis in fact.

And of course, the one opportunity that the electorate had to reverse that situation, we rejected.
I'm one who is proud to have voted against Howlin's star chamber referendum and it's not, as the professor says, effrontery to blame the politicians.

Political power must always be limited to the absolute minimum necessary for our representatives to do our business. The contemptible behaviour of some Oireachtas members towards Kerins clearly shows why that's the case. Just imagine what they would have done had we given them the power to strip her of all her constitutional rights as Howlin's odious proposal asked us to do.
 

cobhguy

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spot on!

the Oireachtas committee should only come in after there's been a full investigation by those charged with upholding the law in these circumstances which in this case should be revenue, ODCE, AGS and CAB. when theyre done and the matter has been tried, then the goolahs can have their day.

furthermore, when youre getting public money there should be cast iron guarantees for the public through legal obligations with serious sanctions for those who fail to uphold those obligations.
No, the Oireachtas committee is only looking at how funds are spent. It is not looking at or Suggesting anything criminal or other that would need the revenue, ODCE, AGS and CAB to be involved.

They are only looking at making sure funds are used in a prudent way and the committee is the best way of looking at that.
 

artfoley56

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No, the Oireachtas committee is only looking at how funds are spent. It is not looking at or Suggesting anything criminal or other that would need the revenue, ODCE, AGS and CAB to be involved.

They are only looking at making sure funds are used in a prudent way and the committee is the best way of looking at that.
that's the theory, the practice is somewhat different
 

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