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stanley

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Lets be clear. I am not defending Kerins or Rehab. But its not a policians role to police salaries in the manner they did.

AK knew damn well what she was at, her salary was benchmarked against the top civil servants but she then almost doubled it by using private donations from "Friends of Rehab", almost 10% of annual turnover.

These "Friends" thought their monies were going towards proper charitable work, not to fatten up an already fat cat and several colleagues.
 

stanley

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Best way to make Kerins sod-off would be to do what the Yanks do in such cases. Phone call to the IRS and arrange a thorough audit going back over ten years. One thing I'm pretty sure of is that none of the rather louche characters at the top of Rehab would want any tax officials going over their records to see that everything is straight. You can take that to the bank right enough.

It would take about 5 minutes to come up with a few interesting questions for Flannery, I can tell you that much.
Excellent proposal but do remember the Revenue let Haughey off on Appeal and he kept his ill-gotten gains.
 

Buchaill Dana

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There are ways to curb excessive pay and those would be ensuring that executive pay is linked to general employee pay. In the last 30 years or so executive pay has disappeared over the horizon in terms of any links to the pay of the people who actually make the organisation work.

Can't recall but I think I read some numbers back last year in an article- I want to say from a ratio on boardroom pay of 50 euros to every euro earned by the shopfloor used to be an average, whereas now I believe it would be well in excess of 200 euros to senior management to every euro earned by someone on the shopfloor.

I'm using indicative figures as an example there as I'm not so certain I can recall the ratios in the article, but you get the idea. This is a metric being discussed by various companies who are sniffing the wind and realising that they are headed for trouble at the AGM from shareholders over excessive ratios, and in self-preservation terms weirdly out of whack looting by senior execs in terms of pay, bonus, options, massive contributions to pension by the organisation will be an open door to 'activist investors' where public companies are concerned.

Limited companies in my opinion should be restricted legally to a maximum in terms of remuneration, which can be played with in terms of someone taking a dividend rather than a wage or salary but the ratio regime should really be imposed. I would also announce a levy on special purpose vehicles, which are a tax evasion centre quite frankly in Ireland, LLPs and LLCs. Not enough to kill it, but a tickle for the state coffers nonetheless which might be substantial but that's for reforms on the finance/tax/economics threads more properly.
I don't disagree. But until that happens, are you suggesting tds can summon CEOs and abuse them over pay?
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Oh come on, you're not that stupid. You know what the point is.



That's a misrepresentation of the situation. The Supreme Court has done absolutely nothing to prevent the Oireachtas from causing any matter to be investigated. What it did is to make a finding that Kerins was treated unlawfully. It even pointed the way to the Oireachtas to put in place a redress mechanism for citizens abused by parliamentarians which would take the court out of the equation.

It's not too much to expect that the people who make laws on our behalf should respect those laws.
Well what that says to me is we need a new criminal charge and that should be in the area of white collar crime reform. There were some total a55holes personally enriching themselves off the back of charities in Ireland I for one will not be giving anything to any Irish charity until I see real reform.

Not vague pawings designed to fail. Real charges, for real executive looting at organisations either asking the public for money directly or in receipt of taxpayers funds.

We have an obesity problem in charity, sports and other organisations in Ireland. And it ain't among the staff.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Excellent proposal but do remember the Revenue let Haughey off on Appeal and he kept his ill-gotten gains.
Hardly surprising. That fellow would have been jailed for any number of corrupt activities anywhere with an even remotely functional legal system.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
is the memory failing you lumpy? do you not remember the inquiries referendum? which was sponsored by shatsie of this case when shatsie and others had decided they were lord high executioners and the SC put in place the rules we have now
Why do we need a referendum or an expansion of the heavily fraudulent 'inquiries' system in Ireland. Screw that. Let's see criminal charges for malfeasance in office and I'm not talking about the 'company law' crap.

I mean on the statute book.

What is long overdue in Ireland is a variation of the US RICO Act and plea bargaining. The only reason we don't have those when they clearly work very well elsewhere is because the governance systems in the state are kept low as a perk for the financially obese.
 

stanley

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Why do we need a referendum or an expansion of the heavily fraudulent 'inquiries' system in Ireland. Screw that. Let's see criminal charges for malfeasance in office and I'm not talking about the 'company law' crap.

I mean on the statute book.

What is long overdue in Ireland is a variation of the US RICO Act and plea bargaining. The only reason we don't have those when they clearly work very well elsewhere is because the governance systems in the state are kept low as a perk for the financially obese.
They have the opportunity at the moment and take on Del Boy at the FAI, rip away the facade of legality his solicitor has portrayed so far, hit him with criminal charges and nail him to the cross all before the arrival of Easter.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Trouble is it is always a long process with many a slip built in, and something of a lawyer's playground. If the proper charges aren't there on the statute book and the Gardai, ODCE etc don't have advantages such as the ability to cut someone a deal for dropping in the entire circle involved in odd governance capers (RICO principle) and we don't have the charges framed correctly for white collar crime then it will continue and we'll see a parade of such characters and their doings in the newspapers hedged about with a form of ludicrous etiquette in a vain attempt to prevent 'prejudice'. That is also an arrangement that is one of the handmaidens of corruption in Ireland.
 

Baron von Biffo

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Well what that says to me is we need a new criminal charge and that should be in the area of white collar crime reform. There were some total a55holes personally enriching themselves off the back of charities in Ireland I for one will not be giving anything to any Irish charity until I see real reform.

Not vague pawings designed to fail. Real charges, for real executive looting at organisations either asking the public for money directly or in receipt of taxpayers funds.

We have an obesity problem in charity, sports and other organisations in Ireland. And it ain't among the staff.
I used to be a director (voluntary) of a national charity so I know whereof I speak here. If you want a competent professional with the skills necessary to deal with senior people in business, politics and the public service as well as to manage other staff and volunteers you have to pay them appropriately.

Managing a charity is like managing a business in that regard. Tommy or Mary who have hearts of gold and are willing to work for food might be lovely people but there's little hope they'll be effective.
 

omgsquared

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Some of the stuff I've seen reported out of the charity sector and its boardrooms would actually be called embezzlement in other countries.
This is even worse in the entire UN , DFA and AID sector. Ireland spends 800m Euro per annum on overseas aid that from my experience is a waste of money. It supports over paid UN , NGOs staff most of whom have development aid, polotical secience, gender study degrees who woudl not get a job in the real world.
But when they are looking for money they roll out the nurse in the refugee camp or the dead peacekeepers instead of the fat cats ( nowadays usually women) swanning around and pretending to save the world.
Cut aid and reduce the need for charities..
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
I have seen some appalling characters end up in fundraising for major institutions in the UK too. The University or higher education sector is not so bad but the charity sector, even with regulatory and information systems a major leap ahead of the Republic with its obviously sh1tty aspect of being a retirement game profitably for people with a Dail parking permit, is appalling in the UK for being a home for people who failed in another career.

The charity sector, from what I've seen in the UK, is not a sector I'd choose to work in although I have had offers. I tend to avoid it. The worst sort of clowns lurk around there on large salaries. Bullying, discrimination, the lot, you'll find it in there in buckets. I have had on occasion to try to help someone working in that area at the end of their tether and being on the end of bullying.

As an Irish friend of mind said over Christmas, she came out with a startling comment I'd not considered before (and am not quite ready to accept as an insight without further thought), 'the English are fine to work with as long as you remember they have a peculiar habit of bringing their class system into the office'.

It sounds like something I should try to analyse and assess whether it is true. I'm not convinced it is a valid insight but I can't help thinking about it at the back of my mind. I've definitely seen some horrible gits get promoted and suddenly become unbearable with their new found status which makes me think some of them are just lower middle class snobs being validated and empowered when they are the last people anyone should give any authority to.
 

stanley

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I used to be a director (voluntary) of a national charity so I know whereof I speak here. If you want a competent professional with the skills necessary to deal with senior people in business, politics and the public service as well as to manage other staff and volunteers you have to pay them appropriately.

Managing a charity is like managing a business in that regard. Tommy or Mary who have hearts of gold and are willing to work for food might be lovely people but there's little hope they'll be effective.

Am sure there are plenty of civil servants who can be appointed to Charities (1/2 days per week) to keep an eye on how public funds are used, it is ridiculous what AK/FF have done with regard to monies and they are not alone, Govt is not looking after taxpayers' monies properly.
 

Baron von Biffo

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Am sure there are plenty of civil servants who can be appointed to Charities (1/2 days per week) to keep an eye on how public funds are used, it is ridiculous what AK/FF have done with regard to monies and they are not alone, Govt is not looking after taxpayers' monies properly.
The charity I was a director of had to submit monthly statements to the relevant government department to account for the grant we received. In addition there were annual meetings with senior civil servants around our governance, finances and what the state was getting in return for the money it gave us.
 

stanley

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The charity I was a director of had to submit monthly statements to the relevant government department to account for the grant we received. In addition there were annual meetings with senior civil servants around our governance, finances and what the state was getting in return for the money it gave us.
Very creditable but not all the Charities behaved themselves and so we are left with the likes of AK/FF who are in it for the money.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
You can be pretty sure certain charities with politically connected boardrooms wouldn't be treated like that.
 

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