Anglo-Irish Treaty - Public referendum?

diy01

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
3,017
My understanding is that the Treaty required ratification by Dáil Éireann, the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and the British Parliament.

However, was there a public referendum on the treaty?

If so, does anyone know what % voted in favour?
 


jjacollins

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2005
Messages
64
There was no referendum on the treaty.

Those in power at the time pulled the wool over the general public and left it until after another general election to decide things amogst themselves.

Sadly the Dail was filled with IRB members who did what their leader told them to do.

Their leader was Michael Collins, so it's no surprise that the Treaty was accepted by Dail Eireann.
 

forest

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Messages
3,355
whats the anglo irish treaty:?:
was that the 1st one in the 80's
 

factual

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Messages
8,723
forest said:
whats the anglo irish treaty:?:
was that the 1st one in the 80's
No that was the Anglo Irish Agreement which was something that the SDLP and FG thought a good idea. Sinn Fein negotiated the Good Friday Agreement which was better.
 

Rocky

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
8,505
diy01 said:
My understanding is that the Treaty required ratification by Dáil Éireann, the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and the British Parliament.

However, was there a public referendum on the treaty?

If so, does anyone know what % voted in favour?
There was no direct referendum on it. However there an election where people had the choice between Pro-Treaty parties and an Anti-Treaty party and the Pro Treaty parties won a massive victory. I can't find the exact percent, but the Pro Treaty parties got about 70% and Anti-Treaty SF 30% of the vote.
 

Rocky

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
8,505
jjacollins said:
There was no referendum on the treaty.

Those in power at the time pulled the wool over the general public and left it until after another general election to decide things amogst themselves.

Sadly the Dail was filled with IRB members who did what their leader told them to do.

Their leader was Michael Collins, so it's no surprise that the Treaty was accepted by Dail Eireann.
Although the IRB supported the Treaty as a group, all of its TDs were allowed to vote on the treaty according to their own consciences, for example Harry Boland was a leading figure in the IRB and he voted against the Treaty in the Dail.
 

Mozalini

Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
28
Rocky said:
diy01 said:
My understanding is that the Treaty required ratification by Dáil Éireann, the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and the British Parliament.

However, was there a public referendum on the treaty?

If so, does anyone know what % voted in favour?
There was no direct referendum on it. However there an election where people had the choice between Pro-Treaty parties and an Anti-Treaty party and the Pro Treaty parties won a massive victory. I can't find the exact percent, but the Pro Treaty parties got about 70% and Anti-Treaty SF 30% of the vote.
Actually Pro-Treaty candidates got 46% and Anti-Treaty 28%. Labour and The Farmers Party did surprisingly well in that election.
 
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
61
In fairness, the 1985 Ango-Irish Treaty was the foundation stone of the Good Friday Agreement.

For the first time it gave Dublin a role in the North and paved the way for the unified approach from London and Dublin.
 

Rocky

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
8,505
Mozalini said:
Rocky said:
diy01 said:
My understanding is that the Treaty required ratification by Dáil Éireann, the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and the British Parliament.

However, was there a public referendum on the treaty?

If so, does anyone know what % voted in favour?
There was no direct referendum on it. However there an election where people had the choice between Pro-Treaty parties and an Anti-Treaty party and the Pro Treaty parties won a massive victory. I can't find the exact percent, but the Pro Treaty parties got about 70% and Anti-Treaty SF 30% of the vote.
Actually Pro-Treaty candidates got 46% and Anti-Treaty 28%. Labour and The Farmers Party did surprisingly well in that election.
Labour, the Farmers Party and all the Independents were all Pro-Treaty so a vote for them was a vote for the Treaty.
 

Cael

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,304
If there was democracy in Ireland we would have a referendum in all 32 counties now to see if the people want the 32 county Republic Re-established.
 

doheochai

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
61
Rocky said:
Labour, the Farmers Party and all the Independents were all Pro-Treaty so a vote for them was a vote for the Treaty.
Farmers Party supported the treaty.

Labour was more diverse with some candidates supporting and some opposing.
 

The Analyser

Active member
Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
115
Cael said:
If there was democracy in Ireland we would have a referendum in all 32 counties now to see if the people want the 32 county Republic Re-established.
:roll: Mindboggling. Since when have you ever been a democrat? The people on the island have made it clear that they unambiguously reject your RSF over and over and over. Yet you lot ignore it. Obviously you only believe in democracy if it gives you the 'right' result. :roll:
 

The Analyser

Active member
Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
115
diy01 said:
My understanding is that the Treaty required ratification by Dáil Éireann, the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and the British Parliament.

However, was there a public referendum on the treaty?

If so, does anyone know what % voted in favour?
There was no plebiscite, nor a requirement for one. At the time, AFAIK referenda were unheard of in the British constitutional system, and rarely used in any other countries either. The issue did feature in the subsequent 'pact election'. Though some seats were uncontested, returning a lsate of pro- and anti-treaty candidates in some areas, amid the contests public opinion on the matter was unambiguous, with if I remember correctly, the pro-treaty candidates winning 70% and the anti-treaty candidates winning 30%. No-one, even its critics, argued that the Treaty did not have overwhelming public support. Critics argued that the public should not support it, not that they did not.

The concept of having referenda first appeared in Ireland in the 1922 constitution, which was produced and enacted after the Treaty and elections.
 

Mozalini

Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
28
The Analyser said:
diy01 said:
My understanding is that the Treaty required ratification by Dáil Éireann, the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and the British Parliament.

However, was there a public referendum on the treaty?

If so, does anyone know what % voted in favour?
There was no plebiscite, nor a requirement for one. At the time, AFAIK referenda were unheard of in the British constitutional system, and rarely used in any other countries either. The issue did feature in the subsequent 'pact election'. Though some seats were uncontested, returning a lsate of pro- and anti-treaty candidates in some areas, amid the contests public opinion on the matter was unambiguous, with if I remember correctly, the pro-treaty candidates winning 70% and the anti-treaty candidates winning 30%. No-one, even its critics, argued that the Treaty did not have overwhelming public support. Critics argued that the public should not support it, not that they did not.

The concept of having referenda first appeared in Ireland in the 1922 constitution, which was produced and enacted after the Treaty and elections.
Exactly, even De Valera acknowledged the Treaty had popular support. His argument was something along the lines of: The will of the majority does not give them the right to do wrong by the country.
 

diy01

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
3,017
Interesting. Thanks for the responses.

I was aware that the treaty was narrowly ratified by the Second Dáil and that the pro-treaty parties won a majority of votes...but I wasn't sure if the general public had been consulted in any way previously.

I believe De Valera's quote was: "the people have no right to do wrong."

Seems he also said: "....Military victory must be allowed to rest for the moment with those who have destroyed the Republic." after the Civil War.

Doesn't sound like a believer in majority rule.

Is it possible to find out who voted for and against the treaty? (64 in favour, 57 against) Or was it done by secret ballot?
 

Cael

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,304
The Analyser said:
Cael said:
If there was democracy in Ireland we would have a referendum in all 32 counties now to see if the people want the 32 county Republic Re-established.
:roll: Mindboggling. Since when have you ever been a democrat? The people on the island have made it clear that they unambiguously reject your RSF over and over and over. Yet you lot ignore it. Obviously you only believe in democracy if it gives you the 'right' result. :roll:
Your idea of "democracy" is contained within the context of British imposed partition and the denial of Irish national soverenty, i.e. British terrorism sets the limit for Irish democracy. This is not democracy - its slaves prending to themselves that they built their own cages of their own consent. I support genuine Irish democracy, i.e. all the people of Ireland deciding their own future without foreign constraint or threat.
 
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Messages
49
A couple of points regarding this debate

1. It can easily be argued that the republicans acted anti-democratically during the civil War but they weren`t anti-democratic per se. Their arguments against the Treaty hinged on the vote in the 1918 General Election and the fact that by accepting the Treaty that we were staying in the British Empire, itself an anti-democratic institution. They also argued that the election/ acceptance of Treaty was flawed for two reasons (a) The threat of war (b) the fact that the voters register hadn`t been updated which meant than in effect women under thirty four and men under twenty five hadn`t got the vote. It is more than likely that this age-group would have disproportionately voted republican. The fact that over a quarter of people voted, on point of principal and despite the threat of war, for Anti-Treaty candidates is incredible and shows the depth of anti-Imperialism/ Republicanism at the time.

2. Regarding the IRB and the Treaty, for me, the jury is still out on that one. Tom Maguire, who took the anti-Treaty side and was an IRB man was ordered to accept the Treaty by his superior in the IRB. That is one prominent example at least.
 

padraig

Active member
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
208
Website
www.sinnfein.ie
diy01 said:
Interesting. Thanks for the responses.

I was aware that the treaty was narrowly ratified by the Second Dáil and that the pro-treaty parties won a majority of votes...but I wasn't sure if the general public had been consulted in any way previously.

I believe De Valera's quote was: "the people have no right to do wrong."

Seems he also said: "....Military victory must be allowed to rest for the moment with those who have destroyed the Republic." after the Civil War.

Doesn't sound like a believer in majority rule.

Is it possible to find out who voted for and against the treaty? (64 in favour, 57 against) Or was it done by secret ballot?
http://politics.ie/wiki/index.php?title ... reaty_Vote
 

The Analyser

Active member
Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
115
padraig said:
diy01 said:
Interesting. Thanks for the responses.

I was aware that the treaty was narrowly ratified by the Second Dáil and that the pro-treaty parties won a majority of votes...but I wasn't sure if the general public had been consulted in any way previously.

I believe De Valera's quote was: "the people have no right to do wrong."

Seems he also said: "....Military victory must be allowed to rest for the moment with those who have destroyed the Republic." after the Civil War.

Doesn't sound like a believer in majority rule.

Is it possible to find out who voted for and against the treaty? (64 in favour, 57 against) Or was it done by secret ballot?
http://politics.ie/wiki/index.php?title ... reaty_Vote
Parliaments usually have open votes because members are there as representatives and therefore their votes should be known to those they are representing. So the Treaty vote was open.
 

FutureTaoiseach

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
7,980
Website
greatdearleader.blogspot.com
There was no referendum. What there was was a Dail election, in which the pro-Treaty SF and Labour defeated the Anti-Treaty SF. However it is difficult to draw firm conclusions from this though because until close to the election, there was actually a Collins-De Valera pact to try to avoid the 2 sides standing against each other. But this pact fell apart by the time of the election but nonetheless as a consequence many seats were uncontested and that may serve to understate somewhat public opposition to the Treaty. Some believe a better barometer is the 1927 election where the anti-Treaty (but constitutionalist) Fianna Fail part won around 37% of the vote. Personally I would feel around 66% favoured the Treaty but only because it was the best deal that could be acheived at the time. Parts of the Treaty were resented though, such as the requirement for TDs to take an Oath of Allegiance to the British monarch, as well as the Governor-General which had the power to veto Irish laws on the instructions of the British govt. And of course the most odious part of all - the continued partition of the island. Ever since 1932 though, Fianna Fail has been the largest party in the country and had the public's support - judging by the re-elections - to dismantle most of the Treaty in the 1930's. The Treaty was not supported out of love, but only temporarily until we could get out of its restrictions on our independence - which wasn't feasible in the 1920's.
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top