• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

Anglo 'of systemic importance': Lenihan


He3

Moderator
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
17,094
The Minister for Finance has claimed that the viability of Anglo Irish Bank was of 'systemic importance' to Ireland. He made the claim at an Oireachtas Committee meeting this morning. He also claimed the collapse in Anglo's share price was connected to Bear Stearns' problems and HBOS...

The Minister for Finance also stressed the viability of Anglo Irish Bank was of systemic importance to Ireland.

He added that the publication last week of Anglo Irish's accounts brought an end to what he called a regrettable chapter in the bank's history.

In response to questions form Labour TD Joan Burton, Minister Lenihan explained the fall in share price at Anglo Irish on 17 March 2008.

He said it was linked to difficulties experienced by HBOS in the UK in accessing funds from the wholesale markets and the crisis at Bear Sterns.


Is what he says reasonable?


RTÉ News: Lenihan stresses importance of Anglo Irish
 

iartaoiseach

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,232
The Minister for Finance has claimed that the viability of Anglo Irish Bank was of 'systemic importance' to Ireland. He made the claim at an Oireachtas Committee meeting this morning. He also claimed the collapse in Anglo's share price was connected to Bear Stearns' problems and HBOS...

The Minister for Finance also stressed the viability of Anglo Irish Bank was of systemic importance to Ireland.

He added that the publication last week of Anglo Irish's accounts brought an end to what he called a regrettable chapter in the bank's history.

In response to questions form Labour TD Joan Burton, Minister Lenihan explained the fall in share price at Anglo Irish on 17 March 2008.

He said it was linked to difficulties experienced by HBOS in the UK in accessing funds from the wholesale markets and the crisis at Bear Sterns.


Is what he says reasonable?


RTÉ News: Lenihan stresses importance of Anglo Irish
Maybe he confused Ireland with Fianna Fail.
 

He3

Moderator
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
17,094
That is the obvious answer, but that aside is there any justification at all for him claiming it was of 'systemic' importance to the country?

If not are we still being treated as fools by him?
 

Cael

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,343
That is the obvious answer, but that aside is there any justification at all for him claiming it was of 'systemic' importance to the country?

If not are we still being treated as fools by him?

Lenihan is either a complete fool or a pathological liar. Anglo-Irish may be systematic to the fortunes of certain landowners and builders, but beyond that no, its not of systematic importance.
 

revereie

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
345
Thats what they said of Lehman Brothers which got us all into this mess.
 

HanleyS

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
817
Does Brian still doubt that we had a property bubble? Does he think that Anglo would have survived without a credit crunch? Does he think it would have been better that we continued building our debt? Does he think it would have been better that we didn't know about the wrongdoings taking place in the banking sector? What planet is he on?
 

Cael

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,343
Does Brian still doubt that we had a property bubble? Does he think that Anglo would have survived without a credit crunch? Does he think it would have been better that we continued building our debt? Does he think it would have been better that we didn't know about the wrongdoings taking place in the banking sector? What planet is he on?

A chara, you have hit the nail on the head there. That's just exactly whats so frightening about all this. Fianna Fáil equate solving Ireland's economic crisis with getting the building industry up and running again and a new property bubble started.
 

He3

Moderator
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
17,094
I am genuinely hoping someone will explain how there could be some reasonable justification for what he said.

If there is none, then the conclusion must be that he either does not understand the words he is using, or he is lying through his teeth. I really do not want to contemplate having to choose which it is.
 

Elmer

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
430
If Anglo is of such 'systemic importance', why wasn't the decision to include it in the guarantee unanimous? According to Morgan Kelly's source - someone "very familiar with what happened at the (Sept 29th) meeting" - extending the guarantee to Anglo and Irish Nationwide "was strongly opposed by representatives of the Central Bank and the Department of Finance (who reportedly came into the meeting with a draft Bill to rescue only four institutions)."
Kelly's source told him that "they were overruled by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, who were supported by the Financial Regulator and the Governor of the Central Bank on the grounds that a sudden liquidation of Anglo’s assets would not be in the national interest."
 

revereie

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
345
Simple - experts can disagree. Experts disagreed on Lehman Brothers too although most now are agreed, its collapse triggered the banking crisis.
 

Aindriu

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
8,702
A chara, you have hit the nail on the head there. That's just exactly whats so frightening about all this. Fianna Fáil equate solving Ireland's economic crisis with getting the building industry up and running again and a new property bubble started.
I agree completely. Fools the lot of them. They are not fit to run up a flight of stairs let alone run the country.
 

Declan123

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
12
The Parallel universe has another member

McCreevy has a go at regulators
Thursday, 26 February 2009 15:40
European Commissioner Charlie McCreevy has lashed banking and financial regulators, saying the system had 'aided and abetted' the creation of a super-bubble.
Speaking to hedge fund managers in Brussels, Mr McCreevy said the regulatory and supervisory systems in Europe and the US had tolerated relaxed lending practices and the accumulation of unsustainable debt by households, individuals and companies.
While he said regulation was not the root cause of the problem, it did allow the emergence of business models based on what he called 'flimsy and highly leveraged foundations'. He also said the regulatory regime exacerbated the depth of the crisis because it had the effect of putting more money into an already booming economy.
But he said Europe would not regulate its way out of the crisis. Nevertheless, he said, there would have to be additional regulation, adding that regulation of hedge funds and private equity was inevitable. Mr McCreevy said the commission would soon be proposing regulations on executive pay in the banking and financial industries, to more closely align executive pay with the long-term income of such companies, rather than rewarding short-term gain.
 

He3

Moderator
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
17,094
The Parallel universe has another member

McCreevy has a go at regulators

Thursday, 26 February 2009 15:40
European Commissioner Charlie McCreevy has lashed banking and financial regulators, saying the system had 'aided and abetted' the creation of a super-bubble.

Speaking to hedge fund managers in Brussels, Mr McCreevy said the regulatory and supervisory systems in Europe and the US had tolerated relaxed lending practices and the accumulation of unsustainable debt by households, individuals and companies.
While he said regulation was not the root cause of the problem, it did allow the emergence of business models based on what he called 'flimsy and highly leveraged foundations'. He also said the regulatory regime exacerbated the depth of the crisis because it had the effect of putting more money into an already booming economy.

But he said Europe would not regulate its way out of the crisis. Nevertheless, he said, there would have to be additional regulation, adding that regulation of hedge funds and private equity was inevitable. Mr McCreevy said the commission would soon be proposing regulations on executive pay in the banking and financial industries, to more closely align executive pay with the long-term income of such companies, rather than rewarding short-term gain.
The neo-liberal revolution is eating its children.
 
Last edited:

He3

Moderator
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
17,094
Simple - experts can disagree. Experts disagreed on Lehman Brothers too although most now are agreed, its collapse triggered the banking crisis.
That is certainly true enough.

But what experts are you relying on to back up the Minister's claim that Anglo was of 'systemic importance' to Ireland? He has not quoted any.

Are there any experts who have made that claim that you know of?
 

revereie

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
345
To be honest, I'm very loathe to come along and say outright 'this guy's an idiot for taking that course of action ..' when we haven't seen the outcome of the action. I try* to give people esp those with paid-advisors/departments the benefit of the doubt as they are very probably more qualified in their particular field than i am.

It would seem to me, to this un-expert mind that AIB, BOI and Anglo and IL&P are of systemic improtance to Ireland, if only for the support they give to each other. I really honestly do not think that party-politics/ideology/'digout's' paid any part in any recent decision-making here. I think I have even lauded Burton and Bruton's contributions to the various debates over the past number of weeks/months - and I still have 'a little shamelesss behaviour in the past' !



*(thinking furiously to myself as I write that there are undoubtedly occasions when i didn't)
 

He3

Moderator
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
17,094
To be honest, I'm very loathe to come along and say outright 'this guy's an idiot for taking that course of action ..' when we haven't seen the outcome of the action. I try* to give people esp those with paid-advisors/departments the benefit of the doubt as they are very probably more qualified in their particular field than i am.

It would seem to me, to this un-expert mind that AIB, BOI and Anglo and IL&P are of systemic improtance to Ireland, if only for the support they give to each other. I really honestly do not think that party-politics/ideology/'digout's' paid any part in any recent decision-making here. I think I have even lauded Burton and Bruton's contributions to the various debates over the past number of weeks/months - and I still have 'a little shamelesss behaviour in the past' !



*(thinking furiously to myself as I write that there are undoubtedly occasions when i didn't)

Thanks - We are not looking at whether the outcome will be good or bad here, only at the truth or otherwise of his claim that Anglo was of 'systemic importance' - a claim made in justification of what was done. It does look to me as if he has made the claim without backing it up, and it is a specific serious claim.

Your suggestion about Anglo 'giving support' to AIB or BoI in any meaningful sense is one not many people will buy. If anything, Anglo's lending practices put pressure on those two to abandon all sense of prudence.

If there is nothing to back up what he has said today, it seems to me that we have to figure out if we have a Minister for Finance who does not understand what he himself is saying, or who is lying to us.

Is there another alternative I am overlooking?
 
Last edited:

Elmer

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
430
Thanks - We are not looking at whether the outcome will be good or bad here, only at the truth or otherwise of his claim that Anglo was of 'systemic importance' - a claim made in justification of what was done. It does look to me as if he has made the claim without backing it up, and it is a specific serious claim.
Exactly: "He has made the claim without backing it up" and he has been allowed to get away with it. Has any journalist tried to piece together the events of the night of the guarantee? We need a minute by minute account of what happened at that meeting. It's been 5 months. In a real country, books would have been written by now. Do we have any investigative reporters worthy of the name? We know from Morgan Kelly that at least one person "very familiar with what happened" is willing to talk (off the record, at least) so that might be a good place to start.
 
Top