Ardoyne Residents - Orange Order deal collapses

death or glory

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No surprise that you see this in such a jaundiced way, but this elementary stuff.
There were opponents on both sides, but the more reasonable majority on both sides supported the plan. The proposed agreement fell down because the OO rejected it rather than create a split in their ranks. CARA were prepared to take the risk in the interests of a settlement. The OO were not.
Enema,
speaking of jaundiced views
All reports say that two of the lodges parading that route agreed and one disagreed, its the lodges that make the decision to march not the paramilitaries, so it was their call. I would think that the two lodges could have agreed themselves and the other lodge would have had little support for going it alone.
as per the residents groups, one seems to be for it and the dissident gaRC was totally opposed and promised a counter demonstration.
So it is clear it is not mainly the OO's fault as their was an agreement.
 


Irish-Rationalist

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Enema,
speaking of jaundiced views
All reports say that two of the lodges parading that route agreed and one disagreed, its the lodges that make the decision to march not the paramilitaries, so it was their call. I would think that the two lodges could have agreed themselves and the other lodge would have had little support for going it alone.
as per the residents groups, one seems to be for it and the dissident gaRC was totally opposed and promised a counter demonstration.
So it is clear it is not mainly the OO's fault as their was an agreement.
Translation: It's themuns fault.
 

GDPR

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Particularly given Belfast's bloody history and the real potential of it having a re-run the Orange Order trolling the community that suffered the most during the Troubles- CNR Ardoyne- makes it hard to deny that GARC are actually the ones showing wisdom particularly after this. Given the way demographics alone are going also this deliberately stirring up tensions is not in the wider interest of the PUL community who risk getting themselves sucked into the Orange Order's suicide mission.
 

vivabrigada

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Enema,
speaking of jaundiced views
All reports say that two of the lodges parading that route agreed and one disagreed, its the lodges that make the decision to march not the paramilitaries, so it was their call. I would think that the two lodges could have agreed themselves and the other lodge would have had little support for going it alone.
as per the residents groups, one seems to be for it and the dissident gaRC was totally opposed and promised a counter demonstration.
So it is clear it is not mainly the OO's fault as their was an agreement.
Pathetic
An arrangement had been agreed with deference to the importance to unionists and loyalists of the Somme centenary.
Loyalist paramilitaries rejected it and the OO fell in with them again. Lunacy.
What's the next plan, a re-graduated response?
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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Enema,
speaking of jaundiced views
All reports say that two of the lodges parading that route agreed and one disagreed, its the lodges that make the decision to march not the paramilitaries, so it was their call. I would think that the two lodges could have agreed themselves and the other lodge would have had little support for going it alone.
as per the residents groups, one seems to be for it and the dissident gaRC was totally opposed and promised a counter demonstration.
So it is clear it is not mainly the OO's fault as their was an agreement.
DoG, in your POV, is this Ardoyne saga worth the candle in your POV for the OO? Twaddell has already cost a fortune with the squat protests and raucous ones come parade time that create loads of bad press. Belfast has also been growing more Catholic over time and likely will, including the Ardoyne area.

Still, there's loads of PUL areas of Belfast that always likely will be, and large portions of NI that also will be. Even in divided areas and some CNR dominant ones, people find ways to route parades and do invites, etc. Living in Tyrone, you're aware of that and how marches get routed around to avoid conflicts given it's a divided county with even many divided towns.

Thus, OO parades go on without incident throughout NI and it always seems to come down to a certain few flash points amongst thousands due to particular stubbornness of someone wanting to march by or through a CNR street. If someone lives in an enclave, that's the way of it. It's not like people can't march...it's a matter of where, and it's not like all kinds of options for that aren't available.
 

Enigma Variations

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Enema,
speaking of jaundiced views
All reports say that two of the lodges parading that route agreed and one disagreed, its the lodges that make the decision to march not the paramilitaries, so it was their call. I would think that the two lodges could have agreed themselves and the other lodge would have had little support for going it alone.
as per the residents groups, one seems to be for it and the dissident gaRC was totally opposed and promised a counter demonstration.
So it is clear it is not mainly the OO's fault as their was an agreement.
DOG I'm not sure I under stand what your beef is. Every detail in your post and mine conform with the exception of the apportioning of blame. The majority of the lodges (two) wanted to settle, regardless of Garc's opposition, and as I understand it GARC are representative of a minority of local dissident opinion whereas CARA are far more representative of majority opinion in Ardoyne.
The Orange Order rejected the agreement because of one lodge, i.e. the minority. This parade could have passed off entirely peacefully had there been an agreement, and in the event that it didn't it would have left the local nationalist minority looking decidedly unreasonable. Now that mantle is widely seen as belonging to your Order.
You guys blew it - again. When will you ever learn?
 

death or glory

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DOG I'm not sure I under stand what your beef is. Every detail in your post and mine conform with the exception of the apportioning of blame. The majority of the lodges (two) wanted to settle, regardless of Garc's opposition, and as I understand it GARC are representative of a minority of local dissident opinion whereas CARA are far more representative of majority opinion in Ardoyne.
The Orange Order rejected the agreement because of one lodge, i.e. the minority. This parade could have passed off entirely peacefully had there been an agreement, and in the event that it didn't it would have left the local nationalist minority looking decidedly unreasonable. Now that mantle is widely seen as belonging to your Order.
You guys blew it - again. When will you ever learn?
Enema,
where does it say that the Orange Order rejected it, that is your prejudiced take on the matter. from the start gaRC and the Disso' s opposed it and I think they are equally to blame.
But if they still want ( and that's what it was) a peaceful protest camp and a parade most nights.
I know that when people like Viva don't even accept that Loyalists live in Ardoyne, and that I believe is what the camp is about. Seeking recognition and acceptance of the Ardoyne PUL community whereas the disso's want to show ownership of the Ardoyne shop fronts, and mostly they still are trying to get revenge for the Holy cross dispute.
 

vivabrigada

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Enema,
where does it say that the Orange Order rejected it, that is your prejudiced take on the matter. from the start gaRC and the Disso' s opposed it and I think they are equally to blame.
But if they still want ( and that's what it was) a peaceful protest camp and a parade most nights.
I know that when people like Viva don't even accept that Loyalists live in Ardoyne, and that I believe is what the camp is about. Seeking recognition and acceptance of the Ardoyne PUL community whereas the disso's want to show ownership of the Ardoyne shop fronts, and mostly they still are trying to get revenge for the Holy cross dispute.[/QUOTE
Lunacy
 
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O'Sullivan Bere

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Viva, quick question since you live in that area. If the parade passed by the shop fronts with an agreement to play, let's say, popular Irish tunes that show respect and enjoyable music to the CNR community or better yet both (obviously not sectarian and/or Troubles related stuff by either side), could that be a solution?

In other words, if they would agree to pay the same courtesy and respect for the consent, could that be a deal past this issue? Obviously GARC will oppose anything, but let's stay within the rest that can be reasoned with. If that couldn't be agreed by the OO, then that would be on them and IMO even look poorly on them.

Bands can and now often do participate in St Pats parades playing fun Irish songs everyone likes. It's been a good thing all around IMO. July isn't quite so neutral as we know, but if improvements are to be made, focus on CNR or PUL culture can be done without the nasty edges of sectarianism.
 

Had 327

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What a disgrace.
 

vivabrigada

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Viva, quick question since you live in that area. If the parade passed by the shop fronts with an agreement to play, let's say, popular Irish tunes that show respect and enjoyable music to the CNR community or better yet both (obviously not sectarian and/or Troubles related stuff by either side), could that be a solution?

In other words, if they would agree to pay the same courtesy and respect for the consent, could that be a deal past this issue? Obviously GARC will oppose anything, but let's stay within the rest that can be reasoned with. If that couldn't be agreed by the OO, then that would be on them and IMO even look poorly on them.

Bands can and now often do participate in St Pats parades playing fun Irish songs everyone likes. It's been a good thing all around IMO. July isn't quite so neutral as we know, but if improvements are to be made, focus on CNR or PUL culture can be done without the nasty edges of sectarianism.
Firstly it,s a fallacy that the parade merely passes shop fronts, it didn't. The antagonistic approach by bands for three years wouldn't lend to your idea of fun music, it wouldn't happen. Given the Somme anniverary tomorrow a morning parade could be managed despite GARC objections.
The alternative is a long term stand off witch benefits no one.
 

Had 327

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Firstly it,s a fallacy that the parade merely passes shop fronts, it didn't. The antagonistic approach by bands for three years wouldn't lend to your idea of fun music, it wouldn't happen. Given the Somme anniverary tomorrow a morning parade could be managed despite GARC objections.
The alternative is a long term stand off witch benefits no one.
All over a road they want to want to march down, playing their flutes and banging on their drums with their silly wee hats.
 

Had 327

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Pretty sure loyalists violently rerouted a Republican parade from a certain route down the Belfast city centre a few years ago, AFAIK it wasn't even passing any staunchly loyalist areas. The next year they attacked them with missiles as they marched.
 
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death or glory

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Firstly it,s a fallacy that the parade merely passes shop fronts, it didn't. The antagonistic approach by bands for three years wouldn't lend to your idea of fun music, it wouldn't happen. Given the Somme anniverary tomorrow a morning parade could be managed despite GARC objections.
The alternative is a long term stand off witch benefits no one.
Viva,
It does pass the Ardoyne shop fronts.
also a parade could have also been done with only two of the lodge's marching.
 

vivabrigada

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Pretty sure loyalists violently rerouted a Republican parade from a certain route down the Belfast city centre a few years ago, AFAIK it wasn't even passing any staunchly loyalist areas. The next year they attacked them with missiles as they marched.
Ironicly they were rerouted to a route that took them closer to loyalist areas they wanted to avoid.
 

vivabrigada

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Viva,
It does pass the Ardoyne shop fronts.
also a parade could have also been done with only two of the lodge's marching.
Why ignore the fact that local residents live on both sides of the road, the Parades Commission didn't?
 

Irish-Rationalist

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Viva, quick question since you live in that area. If the parade passed by the shop fronts with an agreement to play, let's say, popular Irish tunes that show respect and enjoyable music to the CNR community or better yet both (obviously not sectarian and/or Troubles related stuff by either side), could that be a solution?

In other words, if they would agree to pay the same courtesy and respect for the consent, could that be a deal past this issue? Obviously GARC will oppose anything, but let's stay within the rest that can be reasoned with. If that couldn't be agreed by the OO, then that would be on them and IMO even look poorly on them.

Bands can and now often do participate in St Pats parades playing fun Irish songs everyone likes. It's been a good thing all around IMO. July isn't quite so neutral as we know, but if improvements are to be made, focus on CNR or PUL culture can be done without the nasty edges of sectarianism.
Unfortunately "The Famine Song" is regarded by the CNR community as not being a "fun Irish song". I guess GARC need to embrace Loyalist supremacism and work on their sense of fun for this one to reach a resolution.
 

Had 327

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Unfortunately "The Famine Song" is regarded by the CNR community as not being a "fun Irish song". I guess GARC need to embrace Loyalist supremacism and work on their sense of fun for this one to reach a resolution.
Why exactly do certain loyalist bands even sing/play that song? I thought it originated in Scotland? Was there notable migration of Catholics to Ulster during the famine? It seems to me like they're already home.
 

Irish-Rationalist

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Why exactly do certain loyalist bands even sing/play that song? I thought it originated in Scotland? Was there notable migration of Catholics to Ulster during the famine? It seems to me like they're already home.
I think there might have been notable emigration of Irish people, Catholic and Protestant, to Scotland and elsewhere during the great famine, and in order to flee starvation. The Irish began to settle in Scotland approx 500 BC, when the European Gaelic invasion of Ireland caused the indigenous Irish (Ulster) Cruthin to flee. There has been a steady exchange of peoples over the centuries, and today's NI populace is mostly descended from early 17th century Scottish and English planters.

The Famine song is often sang by Loyalist's despite many Loyalists being descended from refugees fleeing famine in Scotland, and the Great Famine being an event that impacted the whole of Ireland, including Scottish and English settlers. Those ignorant Loyalist morons who played the famine song outside a Catholic chapel in North Belfast are obviously unaware that they are gloating over the deaths of their own Protestant ancestors, as the famine did not religiously discriminate.
 
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CastleRay

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Why exactly do certain loyalist bands even sing/play that song? I thought it originated in Scotland? Was there notable migration of Catholics to Ulster during the famine? It seems to me like they're already home.
Bands have been playing that Beach Boys song for years along with other mainstream pop culture songs. In recent years Rangers fans in Scotland have put different words to it called the Famine Song. When sung in Northern Ireland it makes no sense. Bands don't sing songs they just play Instruments but spectators have been known to add lyrics at parades.
 


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