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Are INTO etc playing a dangerous game?


B

birthday

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CGUQqQIwDA&url=http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1024/teachers-pay-protest.html?3421574,3421574,flash,247&ei=BAuIUMy7AtCChQfO2ICADw&usg=AFQjCNEgl-z1UyzvFIOpVFb0UlqXFF8wrg

Teachers protesting about lack of equal pay for new entrants today. Understandable in a way but do they really think that
the state can afford to restore the levels previously paid? Would they like to see public reaction if home help for elderly was entirely abolished for the elderly in order to fund this?
Presumably they understand and realise that the government had to do this (lower pay for new entrants) because the Croke Park agreement protects pay of older teachers. If the unions feel so stongly about equality why do their older members not take a cut to bring in a single common scale?

Are the unions just paying lip service to new entrants and enabling their older members to laugh all the way to the bank as they retire on tax free lump sums of €100,000 and pensions higher than the salary of new entrants?

Is the new pay really all that bad? New teachers (if in a permanent full-time position which is more common for primary teachers) are still getting several thousand (€28k acording to RTE) more than the average graduate starting salary (€25k)
and and have guaranteed increments over their career which are paid regardless of performance.

Of course some teachers are finding it very hard to get full hours and struggle for years to get a permanent position.

I do not want this too turn into a teacher bashing thread but I am genuinely perplexed by the inherent risks in this approach.
Most teachers do a good job, have larger class sizes than a few years ago and many experience on a daily basis some of the awfulness of the economic collapse in terms of social deprivation they encounter.


http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http://gradireland.com/careers-advice/working-in-ireland-and-northern-ireland/salaries-and-benefits-for-new-graduates&ei=Ag6IUNHHN8yKhQev5ICwDg&usg=AFQjCNEfmZuANHLKpMplpO4APY59nxpLRg

Common Basic Scales, INTO - Irish National Teachers' Organisation - into.ie
 

Prester Jim

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
10,071
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CGUQqQIwDA&url=http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1024/teachers-pay-protest.html?3421574,3421574,flash,247&ei=BAuIUMy7AtCChQfO2ICADw&usg=AFQjCNEgl-z1UyzvFIOpVFb0UlqXFF8wrg

Teachers protesting about lack of equal pay for new entrants today. Understandable in a way but do they really think that
the state can afford to restore the levels previously paid? Would they like to see public reaction if home help for elderly was entirely abolished for the elderly in order to fund this?
Presumably they understand and realise that the government had to do this (lower pay for new entrants) because the Croke Park agreement protects pay of older teachers. If the unions feel so stongly about equality why do their older members not take a cut to bring in a single common scale?

Are the unions just paying lip service to new entrants and enabling their older members to laugh all the way to the bank as they retire on tax free lump sums of €100,000 and pensions higher than the salary of new entrants?

Is the new pay really all that bad? New teachers (if in a permanent full-time position which is more common for primary teachers) are still getting several thousand (€28k acording to RTE) more than the average graduate starting salary (€25k)
and and have guaranteed increments over their career which are paid regardless of performance.

Of course some teachers are finding it very hard to get full hours and struggle for years to get a permanent position.

I do not want this too turn into a teacher bashing thread but I am genuinely perplexed by the inherent risks in this approach.
Most teachers do a good job, have larger class sizes than a few years ago and many experience on a daily basis some of the awfulness of the economic collapse in terms of social deprivation they encounter.


http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http://gradireland.com/careers-advice/working-in-ireland-and-northern-ireland/salaries-and-benefits-for-new-graduates&ei=Ag6IUNHHN8yKhQev5ICwDg&usg=AFQjCNEfmZuANHLKpMplpO4APY59nxpLRg

Common Basic Scales, INTO - Irish National Teachers' Organisation - into.ie
As a teacher on the old rate, I would gladly back the idea of equalising the pay scales by cutting all teachers pay by say 3% and rescinding the cut to the new entrants.
I don't have a mortgage however so I can only speak for myself and the other colleagues who I have discussed this with.
We have already taken a hefty chunk of a cut but the state is in the sh1tter and I hate the ideaa of inequalities such as these within a profession.
It should also be noted that the unions didn't agree to these cuts to new entrants; the govt did (as is their wont), teachers are not responsible for the cuts to new entrants.
 

potholedogger

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
1,238
As a teacher on the old rate, I would gladly back the idea of equalising the pay scales by cutting all teachers pay by say 3% and rescinding the cut to the new entrants.
I don't have a mortgage however so I can only speak for myself and the other colleagues who I have discussed this with.
We have already taken a hefty chunk of a cut but the state is in the sh1tter and I hate the ideaa of inequalities such as these within a profession.
It should also be noted that the unions didn't agree to these cuts to new entrants; the govt did (as is their wont), teachers are not responsible for the cuts to new entrants.
Retain the same teacher pay budget but allow teachers to vote on how to divide it amongst themselves!
 

noodles

Well-known member
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
416
I am a teacher and at this stage I would happily take a pay cut. I'm sick of all the negative comment.
My marginal rate is now 54%.
I could take a 10000 cut ( 20%) and the net cost would be 100 a week. Luckily I don't have a big mortgage so I would just have to cut back 15 euro a day.

Would that be it then?
Would people be happy and leave us alone?
 

potholedogger

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
1,238
Would the teachers accept further cuts applied equally over the age profile of the profession?
 

gijoe

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2010
Messages
15,419
I am a teacher and at this stage I would happily take a pay cut. I'm sick of all the negative comment.
My marginal rate is now 54%.
I could take a 10000 cut ( 20%) and the net cost would be 100 a week. Luckily I don't have a big mortgage so I would just have to cut back 15 euro a day.

Would that be it then?
Would people be happy and leave us alone?
No. We'll be after your holidays after that. petunia
 

Spanner Island

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
24,203
Their union agreed to this.

Presumably the teachers themselves are still paying their union dues and remain union members.

Therefore teachers whingeing about this can can go and f*** off with themselves and their hypocrisy...
 

dgl

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
783
I am a teacher and at this stage I would happily take a pay cut. I'm sick of all the negative comment.
My marginal rate is now 54%.
I could take a 10000 cut ( 20%) and the net cost would be 100 a week. Luckily I don't have a big mortgage so I would just have to cut back 15 euro a day.

Would that be it then?
Would people be happy and leave us alone?
I don't think any teacher need take a cut except perhaps those at the top end of the scale.

What should happen is that salaries should freeze until the rate equals what they would be paid on their point on the new entrant scale.

Within a few years all teachers would again be on the new scale, without the lower paid among them actually suffering a cut.

Same should happen across the PS.
 

Eoin Coir

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2012
Messages
16,632
Are teachers worried about children (as they say) or more likely themselves. After all 80% of Education budget goes on salaries,
 

Keith-M

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
15,779
Website
www.allkindsofeverything.ie
In the short term, the easiest (and best) way to do away with any wage inequality is for the teachers to come up with a formula where the top earners get a little less and new entrants get more. Given how few new entrants are coming in, it would be a very minor adjustment for the high earners.

In the longer term, there must be a new round of proper benchmarking, not only against the private sector but against teachers in other countries.
 

Prester Jim

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
10,071
Are teachers worried about children (as they say) or more likely themselves. After all 80% of Education budget goes on salaries,
Of course they are worried about themselves, I have no doubt you are a secular saint and give 80% of your salary away to the needy, the rest of us have bills.
We can also worry about the children's education and the effect the cuts have, the two views are not mutually exclusive.
 

Seagrue

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Messages
12
Part time teachers.

No. We'll be after your holidays after that. petunia
It's not just new entrants who are being hit. About 25% of TUI members are part time. Often full time costs, commuting, childcare etc to support a part time job.
The trend is to employ teachers on part time contracts especially in the VEc sector as another cost cutting measure. To this extent, with cutbacks for new entrants, and this part time slice of a job for a lot of others, teaching is taking a disproportionate hit due to cut backs.
 

Prester Jim

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
10,071
Their union agreed to this.

Presumably the teachers themselves are still paying their union dues and remain union members.

Therefore teachers whingeing about this can can go and f*** off with themselves and their hypocrisy...
No the unions didn't agree to it.
If you would prefer they act on their disagreement that would involve a strike, that no-one with an ounce of sense wants.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,889
As a teacher on the old rate, I would gladly back the idea of equalising the pay scales by cutting all teachers pay by say 3% and rescinding the cut to the new entrants.
I don't have a mortgage however so I can only speak for myself and the other colleagues who I have discussed this with.
We have already taken a hefty chunk of a cut but the state is in the sh1tter and I hate the ideaa of inequalities such as these within a profession.
It should also be noted that the unions didn't agree to these cuts to new entrants; the govt did (as is their wont), teachers are not responsible for the cuts to new entrants.
The government overspends by 30%, not 3%.

In an ideal world we'd see total expenditure cut by 30% instead of the current nonsense of expecting our children and grandchildren to pick up the tab.
 

potholedogger

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
1,238
In the short term, the easiest (and best) way to do away with any wage inequality is for the teachers to come up with a formula where the top earners get a little less and new entrants get more. Given how few new entrants are coming in, it would be a very minor adjustment for the high earners.

In the longer term, there must be a new round of proper benchmarking, not only against the private sector but against teachers in other countries.
The State is clawing back 60% of high earners pay where increases given to new entrants would only be taxed at the lower rate!
 

Prester Jim

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
10,071
No. We'll be after your holidays after that. petunia
Very true, which is why I have begun to pay no or very little attention to impotent, inconsequential, begrudging, rage-filled, anonymous posters.
It was a little crazy to have paid attention to them in the first place. :D
 

Berchmans

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
502
To be honest, I smell a rat about this protest today.

It smacks of token lip-service being paid towards the plight of new teachers by the union executives of the INTO, ASTI and the TUI.

Why are these protests only happening now? Why weren't the protests taking place when the actual cuts to new teachers salaries and allowances were happening?

In reality, the teachers' union executives abandoned new entrants to the profession over the past few years. And, by extension, the older permanent whole-time teachers also abandoned their younger colleagues by not speaking up more against these cuts.

The union executives are scared. There is a serious amount of disillusionment directed towards them by new teachers who feel (rightly) that they were shafted by their unions in their hour of need. I see this in my own place of work, where most of the new teachers aren't joining the union borne out of a sense of betrayal. Dwindling numbers in the union mean dwindling funds for the union head office and diminished bargaining power in future negotiations.

Hence, today's protest was just a token display by the teacher's unions execs that they (supposedly) do care about their younger members.

Yeah, right. :roll:
 

Prester Jim

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
10,071
The government overspends by 30%, not 3%.

In an ideal world we'd see total expenditure cut by 30% instead of the current nonsense of expecting our children and grandchildren to pick up the tab.
That is true, to cut back 30% would however destroy what little activity is in the economy and would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.
The govt. are a little wiser than that.
 
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