Are irish people in Britain irish

pocleary

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I noticed in the news yesterday the story about the riot in Brixton prison, the report says over 100 people fought hand to hand and it was a battle between IRISH and Muslim gangs over drug deals,
Are these IRISH inmates Irish born or the so called london irish, why are we classed as Irish when we commit crime but are English when we are people like 3 of the Beatles, The Gallaghers of Oasis, Dusty Springfield,boy george, J rotten, and many more in other fields like sport and the arts,

the wording as well is wrong, Irish and muslim gangs, why not Christian and Muslim gangs, and lastly, the fight was over drug deals,, I though they were in a PRISON..
===========================
A woman prison governor suffered a broken wrist after falling down a staircase during a riot in which more than 100 inmates fought with chair legs, pool cues and snooker balls stuffed into socks.



Sonia Brooks fell when she tried to help break up a violent brawl between rival Irish and Muslim gangs at Brixton Prison in South London.

Two of her male colleagues were knocked unconscious and one warder suffered a fractured cheekbone as inmates went on the rampage.

Twelve staff were treated in hospital and one had to take a week off after suffering severe concussion. It took 60 prison officers more than an hour to bring the situation under control.

Ms Brooks, a junior governor, had recently been transferred from Feltham Young Offenders' Institution in Middlesex.

The Ministry of Justice played down the extent of the trouble, claiming it was a "minor disturbance" with only 25 prisoners involved in the fighting.

But the Prison Officers' Association (POA) accused the Government of a "cover-up" and demanded a public inquiry from Justice Secretary Jack Straw to establish why the Prison Service failed to order a "Gold Command Suite" ? a top-level meeting of civil servants who direct responses to major jail unrest.

Insiders at Brixton said the riot had been brewing for 'some time' but managers had ignored repeated warnings from staff.

The inmates were packed two to a cell and a series of botched drug deals between the Muslim and Irish gangs are said to have stretched tensions to breaking point.

On January 10, tempers boiled over and a minor scuffle on A Wing escalated into a full-scale riot.

"It was hand-to-hand combat ? an absolute free-for-all," said a source. "Prisoners were fighting on three different landings armed with chair legs, pool cues and snooker balls wrapped in socks. One hundred and twenty prisoners were involved.
 


G

Gimpanzee

pocleary said:
Are these IRISH inmates Irish born or the so called london irish, why are we classed as Irish when we commit crime but are English when we are people like 3 of the Beatles, The Gallaghers of Oasis, Dusty Springfield,boy george, J rotten, and many more in other fields like sport and the arts,
Depends on if they view themselves as Irish. Shane McGowan sees himself as Irish, Johnny Rotten doesn't.
 

madura

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pocleary said:
I noticed in the news yesterday the story about the riot in Brixton prison, the report says over 100 people fought hand to hand and it was a battle between IRISH and Muslim gangs over drug deals,
Are these IRISH inmates Irish born or the so called london irish, why are we classed as Irish when we commit crime but are English when we are people like 3 of the Beatles, The Gallaghers of Oasis, Dusty Springfield,boy george, J rotten, and many more in other fields like sport and the arts,

the wording as well is wrong, Irish and muslim gangs, why not Christian and Muslim gangs, and lastly, the fight was over drug deals,, I though they were in a PRISON..
===========================
That's interesting. It shouldn't be that hard to establish if they were British-born or not? Could they be from the North of Ireland?
 

HanleyS

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Gimpanzee said:
Depends on if they view themselves as Irish. Shane McGowan sees himself as Irish, Johnny Rotten doesn't.
Exactly. If people choose to identify themselves as Irish then who are we to tell them that they are not. I'd be careful of seeking to define what is Irish in case I might be left out. :( After all my family on either side were Welsh and Spanish if you go back a few hundred years. :D
 

madura

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HanleyS said:
Gimpanzee said:
Depends on if they view themselves as Irish. Shane McGowan sees himself as Irish, Johnny Rotten doesn't.
Exactly. If people choose to identify themselves as Irish then who are we to tell them that they are not. I'd be careful of seeking to define what is Irish in case I might be left out.
Really? I thought all that conspicuous consumption and binge drinking would give us away every time in your view?
 

HanleyS

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madura said:
HanleyS said:
Gimpanzee said:
Depends on if they view themselves as Irish. Shane McGowan sees himself as Irish, Johnny Rotten doesn't.
Exactly. If people choose to identify themselves as Irish then who are we to tell them that they are not. I'd be careful of seeking to define what is Irish in case I might be left out.
Really? I thought all that conspicuous consumption and binge drinking would give us away every time in your view?
There's another thread on that. It deals with the issue of defining Irish culture. You might like to read the comments there.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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I think it reflects the tendency of many Europeans to define themselves on the basis of ethnic-roots.
 

nawbut

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irish

I suspect the 'Irish' may have been as Irish as the 'Muslims' were Muslim (drug deals?). On the broader question - the answer is in the question.

Were the drugs English? Were they 'mind control drugs'? - (we have a poster here who has some interesting views on....mindcontroldugs, and likes to repeat the phrase....mindcontroldrugs, until you want him to stop saying..mindcontroldrugs...)
 

Nem

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You should try and get you hands on The Irish in Post-War Britain by Enda Delaney. Its quite interesting to see what the position is of those 2nd generation Irish people in GB. Particularly in the context of their parents and the complex relation they had with Ireland. Interesting and complex stuff.

Btw. it would help if you could point to that actual newsreport?
 

AndyDev

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I think it is possible to be both Irish and British. Why not? If some one can be Britsh Asian why not Irish British?

Millions of Irish came to Britain in the 1800's and earlier in the 20th century. There great-great grandchildren may have Irish surnames but most of them consider themselves British through and through. I have many friends in Britain that fall into this category. With second generation Irish it is a bit more mixed some see themselves as purely Irish, some as a mix of British-Irish. In fact look at the english football team and rugby team a few Irish names in there. Our two countries are inextricably linked.

For me I see Britishness as an overarching identity that encompasses many groups of a different ethnic origin. What makes them British is that they live, work, participate and contribute to life in Britain.

I am Irish through and through but a citizen of Britain therefore I identify with both cultures. Where do people like me fit in to the narrow definitions of identity set by the Unionist and Nationalist mindset?
 

OldDog

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AndyDev said:
I think it is possible to be both Irish and British. Why not? If some one can be Britsh Asian why not Irish British?

Millions of Irish came to Britain in the 1800's and earlier in the 20th century. There great-great grandchildren may have Irish surnames but most of them consider themselves British through and through. I have many friends in Britain that fall into this category. With second generation Irish it is a bit more mixed some see themselves as purely Irish, some as a mix of British-Irish. In fact look at the english football team and rugby team a few Irish names in there. Our two countries are inextricably linked.

For me I see Britishness as an overarching identity that encompasses many groups of a different ethnic origin. What makes them British is that they live, work, participate and contribute to life in Britain.

I am Irish through and through but a citizen of Britain therefore I identify with both cultures. Where do people like me fit in to the narrow definitions of identity set by the Unionist and Nationalist mindset?
Absolutely! I consider myself Irish-European with a subtle flavour of British. In that order. It all depends on each persons experiences, family etc.
 

madura

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AndyDev said:
I think it is possible to be both Irish and British. Why not? If some one can be Britsh Asian why not Irish British?

Millions of Irish came to Britain in the 1800's and earlier in the 20th century. There great-great grandchildren may have Irish surnames but most of them consider themselves British through and through. I have many friends in Britain that fall into this category. With second generation Irish it is a bit more mixed some see themselves as purely Irish, some as a mix of British-Irish. In fact look at the english football team and rugby team a few Irish names in there. Our two countries are inextricably linked.

For me I see Britishness as an overarching identity that encompasses many groups of a different ethnic origin. What makes them British is that they live, work, participate and contribute to life in Britain.

I am Irish through and through but a citizen of Britain therefore I identify with both cultures. Where do people like me fit in to the narrow definitions of identity set by the Unionist and Nationalist mindset?
In what sense do you "identify with Irish culture"? In fact, it might be necessary to explain what you mean by "Irish culture" before the question becomes answerable.
 

Eddie Collins

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Re: irish

nawbut said:
I suspect the 'Irish' may have been as Irish as the 'Muslims' were Muslim (drug deals?). On the broader question - the answer is in the question.

Were the drugs English? Were they 'mind control drugs'? - (we have a poster here who has some interesting views on....mindcontroldugs, and likes to repeat the phrase....mindcontroldrugs, until you want him to stop saying..mindcontroldrugs...)

"(drug deals?)" ???? They control the trade in many areas of britain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4687996.stm
 

Nem

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The identity aspect is quite interesting actually. The Irish Times had a good few articles on it last year (I think). Particularly on those 2nd generation Irish who come over to Ireland and experience certain difficulties.
 

madura

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From observation the experience of growing up and being schooled in a country overwhelms cultural influences coming from parents or family. It takes only a generation in most cases for the inherited identity to disappear.

Though the closeness of the original culture and the global strength/perceived attractiveness of the host culture would be factors - Irish culture would likely be more vulnerable in Britain than Pakistani culture, for instance.
 

HanleyS

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madura said:
From observation the experience of growing up and being schooled in a country overwhelms cultural influences coming from parents or family. It takes only a generation in most cases for the inherited identity to disappear.

Though the closeness of the original culture and the global strength/perceived attractiveness of the host culture would be factors - Irish culture would likely be more vulnerable in Britain than Pakistani culture, for instance.
Are you suggesting a definition for what constitutes being "Irish"?

i.e. A person who identifies with Irish culture is Irish.

That's forgetting for the moment that we have no definition for Irish culture.
 

sandar

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As I've said before the Irish in Britain are those who regard themselves as ethnically Irish when the census is being compiled, its really a matter of personal choice for them whether they do that,
Shane regards himself as belonging to the ethnic group which is white/Irish on the census form, just as I, who was born and reared in Ireland but live in England now would.
Others may have Irish blood but would not regard that as their ethnic origin, so they7 would not be Irish
 

joel

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HanleyS said:
madura said:
From observation the experience of growing up and being schooled in a country overwhelms cultural influences coming from parents or family. It takes only a generation in most cases for the inherited identity to disappear.

Though the closeness of the original culture and the global strength/perceived attractiveness of the host culture would be factors - Irish culture would likely be more vulnerable in Britain than Pakistani culture, for instance.
Are you suggesting a definition for what constitutes being "Irish"?

i.e. A person who identifies with Irish culture is Irish.

That's forgetting for the moment that we have no definition for Irish culture.

"Definition"? - how do you define a culture?

Visitors to Ireland seem to see it though.
 


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