Are newspapers, television channels and government ignoring pay figures in articles and discussions of garda strikes and industrial actions?

patslatt

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Are newspapers, television channels and government ignoring pay figures in articles and discussions of garda strikes and industrial actions?

While it is important to discuss the legal aspects and the implications for future garda relations with society resulting from garda industrial actions and strikes,are newspapers, television channels and government failing to properly inform the public by ignoring pay figures in articles and discussions? Have any of them presented a proper analysis of garda pay figures of all ranks and experience levels including the very generous pension entitlements? Several Irish Independent and Sunday Independent columnists on the weekend wrote interesting articles but without such analysis. The low starting pay of gardai is mentioned but is not placed in context by mentioning the high pay that comes with experience, an issue discussed on P.ie at http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/252006-young-gardai-take-home-pay-low-however-average-pay-all-ranks-68-000-plus-annual-accumulation-pension-rights-40-000-totals-108-000-a.html

Clearly,the public needs more reporting on the pay figures to get a grasp of the issues, which supposedly are mostly about pay.
 


Ardillaun

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Are the figures easy to find? Do we know what the mean, median, modal net income of a garda is with all the trimmings included? And what about the average pension of gardai retiring this year?
 

patslatt

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Are the figures easy to find? Do we know what the mean, median, modal net income of a garda is with all the trimmings included? And what about the average pension of gardai retiring this year?
Even the basic figures in the link are not being commented on AFAIK. The government would bolster its case for Lansdowne Road Agreement by releasing the garda pay figures. Maybe it wants to negotiate and make concessions in secrecy and fears to offend the gardai by truth telling as workers in a militant mood for pay increases aren't easily swayed by reason.

I assume gardai on the old contract retire on half of final year salary, with the pension increasing with the pay of the job once held, a uniquely generous perc. In the anglosaxon world, pensions in the private sector often have no inflation adjustment and public sector pensions rise with inflation.
 

hiding behind a poster

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While it is important to discuss the legal aspects and the implications for future garda relations with society resulting from garda industrial actions and strikes,are newspapers, television channels and government failing to properly inform the public by ignoring pay figures in articles and discussions? Have any of them presented a proper analysis of garda pay figures of all ranks and experience levels including the very generous pension entitlements? Several Irish Independent and Sunday Independent columnists on the weekend wrote interesting articles but without such analysis. The low starting pay of gardai is mentioned but is not placed in context by mentioning the high pay that comes with experience, an issue discussed on P.ie at http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/252006-young-gardai-take-home-pay-low-however-average-pay-all-ranks-68-000-plus-annual-accumulation-pension-rights-40-000-totals-108-000-a.html

Clearly,the public needs more reporting on the pay figures to get a grasp of the issues, which supposedly are mostly about pay.
The pension figures are irrelevant, because public sector pensions are paid from current tax revenues, hence there's no risk premium. Those pensions cost what they cost, when they're paid - and not what it would cost a private sector worker now to fund such a pension, with all its attendant risks, at a point in the future.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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The pension figures are irrelevant, because public sector pensions are paid from current tax revenues, hence there's no risk premium. Those pensions cost what they cost, when they're paid - and not what it would cost a private sector worker now to fund such a pension, with all its attendant risks, at a point in the future.


The favourite topic of Hobbs and Co. Banging on about how terrible it is that they are funded from current spending.

Surely, that's the best model? The alternative being that of funding future pensions from current spending, and gambling on the markets for a return (with all of the attendant costs)?
 

galteeman

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Yes I think you are right, the main stream media never seem to mention the details that would damage the Garda case for going on strike.
The only time I heard anyone putting it up to them was Pat Kenny saying that they are retired for longer than their working life.
 

patslatt

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The pension figures are irrelevant, because public sector pensions are paid from current tax revenues, hence there's no risk premium. Those pensions cost what they cost, when they're paid - and not what it would cost a private sector worker now to fund such a pension, with all its attendant risks, at a point in the future.
What if the public sector pensions in addition to old age pensions continue rising fast and become an intolerable burden in about 10 years in an ageing society? An economic downturn could make the burden intolerable.
 
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patslatt

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The favourite topic of Hobbs and Co. Banging on about how terrible it is that they are funded from current spending.

Surely, that's the best model? The alternative being that of funding future pensions from current spending, and gambling on the markets for a return (with all of the attendant costs)?
Pay as you go pensions were no problem when life expectancy was in the sixties. But now expectancy in the late seventies and the share of the economy going to pensions is rising fast and will become a major burden in about a decade.
 

galteeman

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HarshBuzz

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The favourite topic of Hobbs and Co. Banging on about how terrible it is that they are funded from current spending.

Surely, that's the best model? The alternative being that of funding future pensions from current spending, and gambling on the markets for a return (with all of the attendant costs)?
No, because we have more pensioners, living longer on more generous pensions that are completely unfunded.
The Pay-as-you-go model will eventually collapse once the percentage of spending on pensions overwhelms the State's fiscal capacity.

Fade to grey | The Economist
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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No, because we have more pensioners, living longer on more generous pensions that are completely unfunded.
The Pay-as-you-go model will eventually collapse once the percentage of spending on pensions overwhelms the State's fiscal capacity.

Fade to grey | The Economist


That's a different argument. The money for the future if not paid in the future through then current spending, would have to be funded now, along with existing current pension expenditure.
 

Socratus O' Pericles

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When the voluntary, local militias come in there will be no need for Guards and hence no problem.
 

Man or Mouse

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While it is important to discuss the legal aspects and the implications for future garda relations with society resulting from garda industrial actions and strikes,are newspapers, television channels and government failing to properly inform the public by ignoring pay figures in articles and discussions? Have any of them presented a proper analysis of garda pay figures of all ranks and experience levels including the very generous pension entitlements? Several Irish Independent and Sunday Independent columnists on the weekend wrote interesting articles but without such analysis. The low starting pay of gardai is mentioned but is not placed in context by mentioning the high pay that comes with experience, an issue discussed on P.ie at http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/252006-young-gardai-take-home-pay-low-however-average-pay-all-ranks-68-000-plus-annual-accumulation-pension-rights-40-000-totals-108-000-a.html

Clearly,the public needs more reporting on the pay figures to get a grasp of the issues, which supposedly are mostly about pay.
Neither did anyone to my knowledge, delve to much into why TDs and ministers were getting those raises early next year. We know anecdotally that it is because they are indexed to pay scales for Principal officers for TDs and some higher grade for ministers, but, if public servants are getting such increases, surely they are all round and the "poor teachers" and "poor Guards" are in there at the trough somewhere too. No?
 

HarshBuzz

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That's a different argument. The money for the future if not paid in the future through then current spending, would have to be funded now, along with existing current pension expenditure.
Correct. Joan Burton wasn't making that point for the craic.

The entire model cannot survive and needs radical surgery.
 

freewillie

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Correct. Joan Burton wasn't making that point for the craic.

The entire model cannot survive and needs radical surgery.
Why dont people listen to Joan? She makes so much sense
 

HarshBuzz

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Uganda

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The favourite topic of Hobbs and Co. Banging on about how terrible it is that they are funded from current spending.

Surely, that's the best model? The alternative being that of funding future pensions from current spending, and gambling on the markets for a return (with all of the attendant costs)?
Another alternative might be to reduce them to what's affordable.
 

Socratus O' Pericles

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What's the going rate, I'd be interested in a trial run over Halloween.
No rate. Voluntary. They used to have them in the US, I believe they had them in Switzerland also. They had them in Limerick in the 1960's apparently when the local guards couldn't deal with the teddy boys they gave tacit approval to lads from the local GAA and Rugby clubs to deal with the problem.

Also there is the idea of a posse where the community could give one of its number powers to swear in a group of individuals to deal with particular problems, like in the Philippines for instance.

The main idea is to get away from the idea that anyone ought to be paid from the public purse. There should be no public purse (tax is anathema) and each individual should have full privileges and responsibilities for themselves subject only to the (unwritten) laws of the free market and the rights to their own property.
 


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