Are the Irish entitled to charter Derry and Belfast?

Talk Back

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I think what is bothering the anglophiles here is that Ireland is one of the oldest countries in the world - and England is just a 10th century upstart.

The historical facts do not fit in with these anglophiles "Giraldus Cambrensis" racist book of lies, view of Ireland.
 


twokidsmanybruises

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This is rubbish.

Never seen or heard of the Celtic language in writing - Gaelic Irish yes.

Not only did our Gaelic political and social order, and associated culture, evolved/originate in Ireland during prehistoric times in Ireland - but it later spread to Scotland.

Scotland is also named in Irish people's stead.
Again, what do you mean by "prehistoric times?"

The people who built Newgrange were also the people who build Avebury and the massive earthworks around Salisbury Plain. It makes absolutely no sense to say one group was "Irish" and the other "British" - Irish or British as cultural indicators simply did not exist at that point.

And those people were not Celts.

If you are saying that "Gaels" are something separate from "Celts", then what are you referring to when you say "Gael"? How is it anything other than a retroactive definition?

As for saying our Gaelic political and social order, and associated culture, evolved/originate in Ireland during prehistoric times in Ireland, what actual historical evidence at all do you have for this? There are no written records from pre-historic times, that's exactly why those times are designated "prehistoric": before recorded history.

You can speculate and believe, but you can't state such things as fact.

There were cultures on this island in pre-historic times, but there's absolutely no proof that those cultures link to our culture as one single, developing culture. There is no proof that there was any contact whatsoever between the Neolithic culture and the culture that produced written artefacts at the end of the sixth century.

Myths are very useful things, but myths are not historical fact.
 

Talk Back

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Again, what do you mean by "prehistoric times?"

The people who built Newgrange were also the people who build Avebury and the massive earthworks around Salisbury Plain. It makes absolutely no sense to say one group was "Irish" and the other "British" - Irish or British as cultural indicators simply did not exist at that point.

And those people were not Celts.

If you are saying that "Gaels" are something separate from "Celts", then what are you referring to when you say "Gael"? How is it anything other than a retroactive definition?

As for saying our Gaelic political and social order, and associated culture, evolved/originate in Ireland during prehistoric times in Ireland, what actual historical evidence at all do you have for this? There are no written records from pre-historic times, that's exactly why those times are designated "prehistoric": before recorded history.

You can speculate and believe, but you can't state such things as fact.

There were cultures on this island in pre-historic times, but there's absolutely no proof that those cultures link to our culture as one single, developing culture. There is no proof that there was any contact whatsoever between the Neolithic culture and the culture that produced written artefacts at the end of the sixth century.

Myths are very useful things, but myths are not historical fact.
Here fool - what do you think Irish people were speaking before they spoke Irish???
 

twokidsmanybruises

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No one knows for sure how old Irish is but it is simplistic in the extreme to date some based on recorded history, so Irish as a language was around before the earliest record of ogham and the earliest historical written reference of the word Gael is not the same as the beginning of Gaelic culture.
No, but what we think go as Gaelic evolved from an earlier language, hypothesised as Proto-Gaelic / Primitive Irish, which dates, at the earliest, to the fourth century. At that point, any previous forms of the language do not originate from the islands that now have become Ireland, the UK, etc.

Gaelic languages did not appear from nothing in Ireland. They came from other parts of the world. They definitely do not have any prehistoric roots in Ireland.

Proto-Indo-European did NOT evolve in Ireland.
 

rem81

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No, but what we think go as Gaelic evolved from an earlier language, hypothesised as Proto-Gaelic / Primitive Irish, which dates, at the earliest, to the fourth century. At that point, any previous forms of the language do not originate from the islands that now have become Ireland, the UK, etc.

Gaelic languages did not appear from nothing in Ireland. They came from other parts of the world. They definitely do not have any prehistoric roots in Ireland.

Proto-Indo-European did NOT evolve in Ireland.
whats your agenda?
 

between the bridges

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Again, what do you mean by "prehistoric times?"

The people who built Newgrange were also the people who build Avebury and the massive earthworks around Salisbury Plain. It makes absolutely no sense to say one group was "Irish" and the other "British" - Irish or British as cultural indicators simply did not exist at that point.

And those people were not Celts.

If you are saying that "Gaels" are something separate from "Celts", then what are you referring to when you say "Gael"? How is it anything other than a retroactive definition?

As for saying our Gaelic political and social order, and associated culture, evolved/originate in Ireland during prehistoric times in Ireland, what actual historical evidence at all do you have for this? There are no written records from pre-historic times, that's exactly why those times are designated "prehistoric": before recorded history.

You can speculate and believe, but you can't state such things as fact.

There were cultures on this island in pre-historic times, but there's absolutely no proof that those cultures link to our culture as one single, developing culture. There is no proof that there was any contact whatsoever between the Neolithic culture and the culture that produced written artefacts at the end of the sixth century.

Myths are very useful things, but myths are not historical fact.
Ye could always consider the likelihood that thon TB is a yank plank that started of on here calling everyone buddy and called slap ball " Irish Football"...
 

between the bridges

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whats your agenda?
Let ye into a wee secret, as worshippible chairspersony of the Orangie illuminati sub committee for world domination, moi's agenda tis to have Fermanagh rule the universe....
 

Talk Back

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Ye could always consider the likelihood that thon TB is a yank plank that started of on here calling everyone buddy and called slap ball " Irish Football"...
More Unionist bullsh1t.

Why don't you foreigners get your own country - one that doesn't belong to other people???
 

Se0samh

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Let ye into a wee secret, as worshippible chairspersony of the Orangie illuminati sub committee for world domination, moi's agenda tis to have Fermanagh rule the universe....
Y'can...but Antrim rules the multiverse...:giggle:
 

Talk Back

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Let ye into a wee secret, as worshippible chairspersony of the Orangie illuminati sub committee for world domination, moi's agenda tis to have Fermanagh rule the universe....
You don't speak for Fermanagh squatter - or any other part of Ireland.

You are a foreigner here - you don't belong here - you never have - and you know it.
 

rem81

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Let ye into a wee secret, as worshippible chairspersony of the Orangie illuminati sub committee for world domination, moi's agenda tis to have Fermanagh rule the universe....
sure...And I'm a Catholic man from the Derrybeg estate in Newry not Derry and not a prod and also whos been living outside of the country for six years /s
 

Talk Back

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No, but what we think go as Gaelic evolved from an earlier language, hypothesised as Proto-Gaelic / Primitive Irish, which dates, at the earliest, to the fourth century. At that point, any previous forms of the language do not originate from the islands that now have become Ireland, the UK, etc.

Gaelic languages did not appear from nothing in Ireland. They came from other parts of the world. They definitely do not have any prehistoric roots in Ireland.

Proto-Indo-European did NOT evolve in Ireland.
Here fool - we can all go back to Adam and Eve.

The salient point here is that our Gaelic political and social order, and associated culture, originated/evolved in Ireland during prehistoric times - our Irish language in writing is the oldest vernacular literature in Western Europe.

We Irish are Gaels, and our country is named in our stead. We are a distinct people - and our country is one of the oldest in the world.

Ireland as a Nation and Kingdom is centuries older than the 10th century upstart England - that's for sure!

The Normans and Vikings assimilated into Irish society - the thieving Planters have not.

Unless and until the Unionists obey the democratic will of the Irish people, and assimilate into Irish society, they are still foreigners in Ireland - still occupying part of our country in another country's name - still holding Ireland back in the same way they always have, since they first stole Irish land from us Irish people.
 

Lord Talbot

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Ireland as a Nation and Kingdom is centuries older than the 10th century upstart England - that's for sure!
The island of Ireland was never a single kingdom, except under English rule.
 

Talk Back

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The island of Ireland was never a single kingdom, except under English rule.
Another idiot.

The king of England, Henry II, signed the treaty of Windsor (1175) with the High King of Ireland, Ruaidrí Ua Conchobair - which recognised the country Ireland, as being one entity - and the Kingdom of Ireland, as having one High King.

Treaties are signed between heads of State and countries.

A treaty by the way, that England broke - per usual.
 

Lord Talbot

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Another idiot.

The king of England, Henry II, signed the treaty of Windsor (1175) with the High King of Ireland, Ruaidrí Ua Conchobair - which recognised the country Ireland, as being one entity - and the Kingdom of Ireland, as having one High King.

Treaties are signed between heads of State and countries.

A treaty by the way, that England broke - per usual.
High kings ruled nothing. The actual kingdoms in Ireland at that time were Munster, Leinster, Dublin, etc. The King of Leinster brought Henry into the fold, because Rory O'Connor was dumb enough to try to confiscate his lands. Henry granted Rory the rest of Ireland outside Leinster, therefore Rory's "kingdom" was subject to Henry.
 

Talk Back

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High kings are not the same as actual kings. The actual kingdoms in Ireland at that time were Munster, Leinster, Dublin, etc.
Unhistorical sh1te.

Which part of "The king of England, Henry II, signed the treaty of Windsor (1175) with the High King of Ireland, Ruaidrí Ua Conchobair - which recognised the country Ireland, as being one entity - and the Kingdom of Ireland, as having one High King." did you not understand???
 

Cdebru

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No, but what we think go as Gaelic evolved from an earlier language, hypothesised as Proto-Gaelic / Primitive Irish, which dates, at the earliest, to the fourth century. At that point, any previous forms of the language do not originate from the islands that now have become Ireland, the UK, etc.

Gaelic languages did not appear from nothing in Ireland. They came from other parts of the world. They definitely do not have any prehistoric roots in Ireland.

Proto-Indo-European did NOT evolve in Ireland.

Of course they didn't appear from nothing, and Human beings have not always been on this spot of land, or this planet.

The origins of the Irish language are unknown because they predate recorded history on this island and by definition are prehistoric(ie before recorded history)

Are we a Celtic people? is Irish a Celtic language ? are different questions and not what was claimed in the post you replied to, latest DNA evidence suggests our ancestors in common with Welsh and Scottish people predate the Celtic arrival, so yes the idea that we are Celtic may well be wrong, our ancestors appear to have been here for perhaps a couple of thousand years before the Celts arrived.

We don't know all this because it happened before recorded history and as such is rooted in prehistory.
 

Lord Talbot

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Which part of "The king of England, Henry II, signed the treaty of Windsor (1175) with the High King of Ireland, Ruaidrí Ua Conchobair - which recognised the country Ireland, as being one entity - and the Kingdom of Ireland, as having one High King." did you not understand???
...so long as they remained faithful to the kings of England :smile:

also known as a vassal.

Or are you saying Ireland was only a single kingdom because an English king said so? :laugh:
 

Talk Back

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...so long as they remained faithful to the kings of England :smile:
More Unionist Bullsh1t.

The historical fact remains - Ireland was one Kingdom and Nation.

Treaties are signed between heads of State and countries.

The king of England, Henry II, signed the treaty of Windsor (1175) with the High King of Ireland, Ruaidrí Ua Conchobair - which recognised the country Ireland, as being one entity - and the Kingdom of Ireland, as having one High King."

A treaty by the way, that England broke - per usual.
 

twokidsmanybruises

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whats your agenda?
My agenda? If there is any, it's to point out when sky-fairy pseudo-historical bolloxology is being spouted.

The sad thing is that my politics view regarding Ireland are quite clear in my comments on other threads on this site. And BtB is well-aware of them, and suffice to say, they are not at all compatible with his/her views. And yet he/she tends to be a more good-natured poster than others.

For the record, I believe very strongly in a UI, and I believe this will happen sooner or later, with Ulster being reunited as the 6 counties making up NI are unified with the 26-state Republic. This is not without problems, in terms of how government will work, but the "how's can be worked out the "what", unification, is assured and a fixed timeline is set.

Ironically, it's the stance of the DUP with regards Brexit that has made a UI in the near future more of a certainty, rather than less.

Lastly, I believe that unionists are cottoning on to the fact that they would receive better treatment in a UI ( with FG bending over backwards to "respect" their cultural identity ( or "ethnic minority", if you like ), than they'll get from the UK, as NI will become the target for all the hate and frustration pouring out from the English if or when a no-deal Brexit goes through and the UK economy crashes. NI will be blamed as causing all the problem.

All of the above belongs on another thread and is on another thread.

However, all this "Gaelic culture stretching back into pre-history" is as based in fact as is the Freemasons' claims that they are part of an unbroken tradition stretching back to the builders of the Temple of Solomon, or a creationist's claim that it is fact that the earth has only existed for 8000 years. It's complete and utter rubbish.

I have far too much respect for 1) languages ( being a linguist and actually knowing a fair bit of how languages have evolved in Europe 2) the neolithic culture that built the earthworks around northern Europe.

A basic clicking of the facts of both these areas shows that some of these "gaels are superheroes" myth-building is just twaddle. Saying so does not in any way argue against a UI or diminish Irish culture. It is simply point outing ignorance of the facts.

Making unsubstantiated claims about a "prehistoric Gaelic culture" DAMAGES the credibility of anyone making such claims. It also damages the credibility of the historic culture we do know about.

For example, Brehon Law was impressive. It, however, was not pre-historic. It dates from the 8th century, was replaced by Norman law, but then reemerged as the primary legal system within the majority of Ireland from the 13th to the 17th century.

Connecting Brehon Law with any prehistoric era is the equivalent of holding up as sign saying "I have no idea what I'm talking about".
 


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