Are the Yes side happy to acknowledge that the unborn child is alive, and then comfortable with killing him/her?

scolairebocht

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Are the Yes side happy to acknowledge that the unborn child is alive, and then comfortable with killing him/her?

We are now in the middle of one of the most important votes held on the island of Ireland for decades and it might be a good idea to pause a little and think about how it is going.

Of course these debates tend to go one way virtually all over the world. The pro-choice side always try to dehumanise the unborn child, by calling the baby just a foetus etc which obviously supports their stance, if its just an inanimate piece of a person's body then who cares what happens to him/her, while the pro-life side always try to emphasise the personhood of the unborn, by putting up cute pictures of him/her etc etc. Anyway I am sure everybody out there gets these arguments by this stage, and as I say its a totally universal argument around abortion all over the world.

But actually, bizarrely, this is not by any means always how the argument is going in Ireland. Many of the key pro-choice people are happy enough to acknowledge the humanity and life of the unborn. Dr Peter Boylan, when asked by Ryan Tubridy "When does life begin?" was quite happy to answer that "Every life begins at conception, when the sperm and egg meet and conception occurs." (RTE1 TV Late Late Show 27/4/2018, https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/the-late-late-show-68/10871805/ 1:17:03). And Senator Catherine Noone takes the next step and is happy to concede that "of course abortion means the termination of a child’s life" (RTE Radio1 Today with Sean O'Rourke 18/1/2018, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYKuivX5s1Y .) In fact many pro-choice advocates go from there and talk freely about the importance of care and respect for unborn children, for example here is a post from the administrator of the Limerick Pro Choice Forum facebook page:
"Make no mistake that Irish women and pregnant people love their babies and humanise the foetus and it is deeply upsetting and wrong that this country does not allow them to terminate their pregnancies at home, with the love and support of their families. We as a country have to respect these people's right to grieve, to say as Danny Healy Rae did, that the "little baby didn't feel very loved" undermines and disregards the pain this decision causes the mother and completely disregards the depths of a mother's love."
And here are some comments placed on the donations page for the Yes campaign:

"The Kilty Family: “In loving memory of Alana Kilty, delivered in Liverpool Women’s Hospital on the 04/03/2017. A victim of Edwards Syndrome and a backwards country. Your parents love and miss you xoxo.”

Anonymous: “For my lovely mam who was forced to carry my sleeping brother to full term. She loved him. This country didn’t love her.”

Siobhan Donohue: “In memory of baby TJ delivered in Liverpool Women’s on October 1, 2011 and for all our TFMR [Terminations for Medical Reasons] babies. Let’s bring compassion home.”

Seamus Ruddy: “In memory of our little boy James who had a FFA [fatal foetal abnormality]. Tragedy should not be punished further by forcing parent(s) dealing with a crisis pregnancy to travel abroad to receive medical care.”

Anonymous: “For baby Jack who shouldn’t have had to suffer here.”

Anonymous: “For the little girl I never met— we both deserved better.”

Sylvia Smith: “For baby Grace and all the other babies who fly high!! Vote yes!!!!!!!”"
( https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/abortion-fundraiser-lays-35-year-history-bare-837271.html .)
So basically the pro-choice side in this debate are trying to corner the market in compassion and care for the unborn. People!?! Have I missed something here? Embrace the abortion industry out of compassion for the unborn? So anyway I read this as going one of two ways:

Maybe the people who are talking this way will come to their senses before the vote. Its just mad isn't it, how can you possibly humanise the unborn, agree that it is a human life, worthy of respect and consequently presumably life, and then kill it? Hopefully as these people really think about this they will just realise that they must vote No, you cannot have any nice thoughts towards the unborn and then vote for an abortion for that boy or girl, unless you are a sadist or something?

The second, somewhat more pessimistic way of looking at this is that some on the pro-choice side seem happy to embrace the killing. They know the unborn is a life and they don't care? Maybe Donal Lynch in the Sunday Independent could be an example of this:
"I will vote for repeal and would be in favour of a more lax regime than the 12 weeks that are being proposed, but my vote, like that of many others, is driven by selective compassion and acceptance of grey areas.

It is inarguable that nascent life, usually something with a face, ends with abortion. A heartbeat stops. And on a philosophical level, maybe this is a victory of the strong over the weak."
(Sunday Independent 11/3/2018, https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/understanding-the-selective-compassion-of-abortion-vote-36691948.html .)
In otherwords some seem to be taking the view that yes we are taking a life, but so what? And the implications of this approach is that it could extend across society. There are many other examples of people out there who are dependent on other human beings, and maybe don't have a voice. Possibly the very severely disabled, Alzheimer's patients, very ill infants, who maybe are vulnerable to this same attitude, to an attitude that could give you euthanasia or infanticide or whatever.

For me anyway that last attitude is scary, it brings home how much modern society seems only one step ahead of the outright barbaric, and maybe that some players are hoping to use this campaign to condition us to welcome the next liberal step of euthanasia etc?

Anyway I hope not and that those on the pro-choice who haven't thought this through will do so and Vote No!
 


derryman

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I can never get past the fact that it is a human life regardless of its potential abilities. Everyday I see different people with different abilities, I don't value anyone of them more than another.
 

Dame_Enda

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I would compare it to a decision to separate Siamese twins where the death of one is certain. Do you decide not to separate them, despite them perhaps being joined at the head?
 

paddycomeback

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The Supreme Court decided birth is the "brightline" event when womb contents become human. Prior to that those womb contents have no legal, moral, physical or spiritual existence.
Any law circumscribing the womb owner's ability to dispose of said contents as she will, shall be declared unconstitutional by the SC.
 

slysnara

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I would compare it to a decision to separate Siamese twins where the death of one is certain. Do you decide not to separate them, despite them perhaps being joined at the head?
You could just leave both of them live.
 

slysnara

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But thats no quality of life. People don't want to live like that. I certainly wouldnt.
I would prefer to have a reduced quality of life than to have someone's death on my conscience.
 

Lúidín

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It's a gradual, developmental process from conception to birth - unless you're an absolutist who wants to impose your moral judgements on others.
 

Bill

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The Supreme Court decided birth is the "brightline" event when womb contents become human. Prior to that those womb contents have no legal, moral, physical or spiritual existence.
Any law circumscribing the womb owner's ability to dispose of said contents as she will, shall be declared unconstitutional by the SC.
Total crap.
 

fifilawe

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OP , another copy ,edit and paste job by ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
 

Mick Mac

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It's a gradual, developmental process from conception to birth - unless you're an absolutist who wants to impose your moral judgements on others.
It's a hard question. I think too many people don't appreciate that and just write it off. Personally, I had never quite thought the early foetus alive. As a pregnancy goes in though I would think it's alive and then more things like is it viable, can it have a life. I'd vote Yes so don't think this is lining up for the no side.

Think if it as well from his perspective. We had 5 miscarriages before our second could carry. If we were to dwell on those 5 as being alive that would be incredibly deep and heavy so perhaps it's understandable that I don't really hone in on that but leave it slide.

I'm say this because well it's a real experience and it's what I can add. This is a deep and heavy topic.

There is a lot to be said for figuring out how to go about this.

And maybe just saying yeah it's a really hard problem is a good thing for people to recognize.
 

redhead

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I don't accept your description of a 12 week foetus as "an unborn child".
Attitudes like those displayed in the OP are doing more for the Repeal side than any of their own campaigning.
 

Lagertha

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I really hate this nonsense of ''the island of Ireland'', it's just Ireland we all know that we live on an island, we all know about Northern Ireland so can we please just stick with referring to the country as Ireland and stop fannying about.
 

Greener

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It is a complex, moral debate, which has no right or wrong answer. It is contingent on your code of beliefs and moral compass, which means there is no absolute answer right or wrong. Belief that life starts at conception or at the point of birth is something that each person can have a personal view on, and there is no scientific answer to a question which falls into the category of "what is the meaning of life". Independent capability is not enough to scientifically prove that life only begins then. Neither is the argument that life begins at conception.

Regrettably, people who are partisan on this debate won't buy that.
 
D

Deleted member 45466

For me anyway that last attitude is scary, it brings home how much modern society seems only one step ahead of the outright barbaric, and maybe that some players are hoping to use this campaign to condition us to welcome the next liberal step of euthanasia etc?
Over civilisation and barbarism are within an inch of each other....

:)
 

John Scotus

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I don't accept your description of a 12 week foetus as "an unborn child".
That's a perfectly rational position to hold, and a perfectly valid reason to support abortion at 12 weeks. (On balance I don't hold that view myself, but I do acknowledge there are some very good arguments for doing so.)

But that's not what the OP is about.

The point being made, as I understand it, is that there seem to be a lot of people out there who do seem to regard a 12/40 foetus as an unborn child, (or as a human life, or as having "personhood", or whatever way you want to call it), but still seem to be quite happy to support legislation which permits their killing.

Either such people have adopted a chillingly inhumane attitude to homicide (as exemplified by the Nietzsche type remarks of the quoted Indo. column, or (more likely) they haven't thought the whole thing through very well and have been drifting along with the superficial "compassion..my body...evil church" cliches which pass as arguments in some quarters.
 

Conor

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The point being made, as I understand it, is that there seem to be a lot of people out there who do seem to regard a 12/40 foetus as an unborn child, (or as a human life, or as having "personhood", or whatever way you want to call it), but still seem to be quite happy to support legislation which permits their killing.

Either such people have adopted a chillingly inhumane attitude to homicide (as exemplified by the Nietzsche type remarks of the quoted Indo. column, or (more likely) they haven't thought the whole thing through very well and have been drifting along with the superficial "compassion..my body...evil church" cliches which pass as arguments in some quarters.
Are you familiar with the "comatose violinist" argument?
 


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