Argentina, Brazil recognise Independent Palestinian State

Riadach

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Dr Pat

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Too much to hope that Ireland would recognise Palestinian statehood?

Have to admit that I wouldn't be too hopeful given Dermot Ahern's disgraceful recommendation that the Irish government recognise "Kosovo" (which it duly did).
 

Interista

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Cavalier

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Cue a mass clearout of the throngs of post-army service, long-haired, bearded, young, macho israeli men currently drinking moderately, playing cards and arguing loudly in hostel dorms all over Argentina.
 

Riadach

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It might be.

But Abbas is a complete tool who doesn't go to the bathroom without getting permission from Israel first.
Yet he pursued this arrangement with Brazil and Argentina. You're not suggesting that Israel orchestrated Argentinian and Brazilian recognition?
 

Roy Feen

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Cue a mass clearout of the throngs of post-army service, long-haired, bearded, young, macho israeli men currently drinking moderately, playing cards and arguing loudly in hostel dorms all over Argentina.
I thought they were all on the southern Thai islands :p
 

Darren H

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Too much to hope that Ireland would recognise Palestinian statehood?

Have to admit that I wouldn't be too hopeful given Dermot Ahern's disgraceful recommendation that the Irish government recognise "Kosovo" (which it duly did).
Out of interest, how would you prefer Kosovo to be governed long term? I don't think it was in many Kosovon's interests for the Serbs to continue?
 

Interista

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Yet he pursued this arrangement with Brazil and Argentina. You're not suggesting that Israel orchestrated Argentinian and Brazilian recognition?
I doubt they're that bothered by it, for all their pretend horror.

If it were a major world power recognising Palestine, then they would be. But Argentina? They'll just shrug it off by bringing up Argentina's history of hosting Nazi war criminals.
 

Riadach

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I doubt they're that bothered by it, for all their pretend horror.

If it were a major world power recognising Palestine, then they would be. But Argentina? They'll just shrug it off by bringing up Argentina's history of hosting Nazi war criminals.
It's still a diplomatic embarrassment to the Israelis. Despite Argentina's history in hiding Nazi war criminals, it still has one of the largest Jewish populations in South America, and there are a few Jews in their cabinet. It certainly seems to be an indication of the loss of a potentially strong advocate.
 

Interista

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It's still a diplomatic embarrassment to the Israelis. Despite Argentina's history in hiding Nazi war criminals, it still has one of the largest Jewish populations in South America, and there are a few Jews in their cabinet. It certainly seems to be an indication of the loss of a potentially strong advocate.
Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? Has Argentina suspened diplomatic relations with Israel or anything like that?

Basically, as long as the Yanks are on board, the Israelis don't give much of a toss. The problem for them is that American power is waning and Israel, to put it mildly, doesn't have quite the same leverage anywhere else in the world.
 

Riadach

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Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? Has Argentina suspened diplomatic relations with Israel or anything like that?

Could you imagine Israel maintaining close diplomatic relations with a country which recognises Palestine within the 1967 borders? It is a clear statement of a cooling in an international relationship.


Basically, as long as the Yanks are on board, the Israelis don't give much of a toss. The problem for them is that American power is waning and Israel, to put it mildly, doesn't have quite the same leverage anywhere else in the world.
Of which this is a timely reminder. It may also be of concern that Latin America have a different paymaster now, and this paymaster is very much a rival to U.S. hegemony. Recognitions such as these will definitely cause pause for thought and reconsideration amongst the Israelis.
 

Interista

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Could you imagine Israel maintaining close diplomatic relations with a country which recognises Palestine within the 1967 borders? It is a clear statement of the cooling of the international relationship.
'Cooling' yes, but not a breakdown. They'll get over it, just as they got over a similar (actually much worse) cooling in relations from a far more important country, Turkey.

Of which this is a timely reminder. It may also be of concern that Latin America have a different paymaster now, and this paymaster is very much a rival to U.S. hegemony
Yes, I agree.

Recognitions such as these will definitely cause pause for thought and reconsideration amongst the Israelis.
Among more thoughtful Israelis, yes. But such people rarely if ever make it to leadership positions in Israel.
 

Riadach

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'Cooling' yes, but not a breakdown. They'll get over it, just as they got over a similar (actually much worse) cooling in relations from a far more important country, Turkey.
It still isn't a satisfactory diplomatic outcome, and one that I imagine the Israelis would have hoped to avoid, especially since it has had quite the domino effect in South America. This isn't just Argentina, it's Uruguay and Brazil, which compromise the bulk of the economic wealth of that continent, and the last of which is currently campaigning for a security council seat. When Israel is already rapidly losing friends, recognitions like these are still damaging. Her policies are being delegitimized by emerging powers, and the PA's hand is strengthening.


Among more thoughtful Israelis, yes. But such people rarely if ever make it to leadership positions in Israel.
Well, if does indeed have a knock on effect, and I expect there are a few more South American countries to follow, the ordinary Israeli voter may become more concerned for their position. Even their siege mentality may be penetrated.
 

Interista

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It still isn't a satisfactory diplomatic outcome, and one that I imagine the Israelis would have hoped to avoid, especially since it has had quite the domino effect in South America. This isn't just Argentina, it's Uruguay and Brazil, which compromise the bulk of the economic wealth of that continent, and the last of which is currently campaigning for a security council seat. When Israel is already rapidly losing friends, recognitions like these are still damaging. Her policies are being delegitimized by emerging powers, and the PA's hand is strengthening.
I hope you are right, but to be honest, I really don't see what difference this will make on the ground. If these countries were urging a full boycott of Israel, then the Israelis would sit up and take notice. But they're not.

As for the PA, like I said I think they are basically a Vichy government who can never form an effective resistance against the occupation.
 

Congalltee

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Too much to hope that Ireland would recognise Palestinian statehood?

Have to admit that I wouldn't be too hopeful given Dermot Ahern's disgraceful recommendation that the Irish government recognise "Kosovo" (which it duly did).
Why is Kosovo in quotation marks?

Ireland recognised Kosovo within a week of its independence. Given the fact that we had trouble getting international recognition (we were first recognosised by post-Czar Russia and we were the first to recognised them).
 

Riadach

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I hope you are right, but to be honest, I really don't see what difference this will make on the ground. If these countries were urging a full boycott of Israel, then the Israelis would sit up and take notice. But they're not.
Let is spread first. These are mumblings, worrisome mumblings. These cannot even be labelled as attempts by these governments to placate their populous, as would be done were they muslim/arab states. I expect Venezuela to follow soon, which in itself wouldn't surprise, but may lead other states such as Bolivia and Cuba along the same path. Before long, the majority of South America will have recognised the Palestinian Authority.

As for the PA, like I said I think they are basically a Vichy government who can never form an effective resistance against the occupation.
I feel what Salam Fayyad is creating at the moment is the strongest chance that Palestine will ever have of being an independent state. I would compare him to the establishment of the Sinn Fein Court system which occurred during the war of Independence. He is slowly creating the infrastructure that would make an independent Palestine possible, something impossible without the support of the PA. Far better than any resistence which has employed the tactic of suicide bombings and pursued civilian casualities. It is far more legitmising than those attempts have been.
 

Interista

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I feel what Salam Fayyad is creating at the moment is the strongest chance that Palestine will ever have of being an independent state
No. The best it can lead to is what 'bibi' calls 'economic independence' - ie the West Bank being a captive market for Israeli goods and services, where responsibility for their own occupation is basically turned over to a collaborationist class.

I would compare him to the establishment of the Sinn Fein Court system which occurred during the war of Independence.
Did Sinn Fein collude in the besieging of their fellow countrymen and women? Did they arrest their compatriots on Britain's say so? Did they regulalarly hold smily happy meetings with the Brits? Did they send 'aid' to the Brits when they had a natural disaster, while colluding in the imprisonment of their own people?

Far better than any resistence which has employed the tactic of suicide bombings and pursued civilian casualities. It is far more legitmising than those attempts have been.
Legitimising of what? Occupation? If so I agree with you. While the former tactics you mention are obviously both morally and tactially wrong, collusion is never the answer.
 


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