"As a Catholic Michael McIlveen won't go to heaven&quot

smiffy

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DSCH said:
He would say Yes. The correct (in your view) answer would be No, as Heaven doesn't exist! Do I win a prize?
Are you sure? Obviously when I said correct answer, I was referring to the 'correct' answer as one which complies with Catholic teaching.

Does everyone get a free pass into heaven then, regardless of who they are or what they've done in life?
 


DSCH

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smiffy said:
DSCH said:
He would say Yes. The correct (in your view) answer would be No, as Heaven doesn't exist! Do I win a prize?
Are you sure? Obviously when I said correct answer, I was referring to the 'correct' answer as one which complies with Catholic teaching.

Does everyone get a free pass into heaven then, regardless of who they are or what they've done in life?
Your average priest would say Yes. Bit of humanity and all that. Most believers live in a world where there are shades of grey.
 

smiffy

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DSCH said:
Your average priest would say Yes. Bit of humanity and all that.
I doubt that very much. They might make some conciliatory noises in a case like this, referring to a specific individual, but if you were to ask them a hypothetical question, about a gay man (or anyone else who was considered a 'sinner') getting into heaven I'm not sure that the answer would be quite as 'human' as you'd like to think.
 
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smiffy said:
Without getting all true04 on it, if you asked a priest whether a gay man who was beaten to death would get into heaven, what do you think the answer would be, and what do you think the correct answer is?
The answer would be "Did he truly repent? Was he given the last rights? Has anyone seen my hat?

For years we as Catholics were taught that Protestants will not get into heaven regardless of how good or bad they are. Why is this mans opinion any different just because he is coming at it from the opposite angle?
 

Skin

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Seánod said:
AndrewM said:
Interesting how 'Daily Ireland' dug up this story. At a time when others are trying to ease tensions, they go out and write this. Not out of any sense of justice, just to sell a few more papers. No one's better off, but SF politicians can walk around on the high moral ground, and sure wasn't his death worth it?
I have very little time for journalists of any hue who live off situations like this...and I hope you would think likewise about many of the papers who act similarly towards republicans.

But I reject your imagery in relation to Sinn Féin here, which actually smacks a little of the journalism you yourself are trying to criticise.
I think Daily Ireland are correct in publishing this story. It only goes to highlight the sectarianism that exists in the North, and in particular Ballymena. It gives a clear insight and understanding to those of us in the comfort zone of the South how a murder such as this and others come about. It clearly points to a mentality that is not just part of a thug culture but resides in the attitudes of supposedly respectable civic and political leaders also.
 

mothball

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DevilsAdvocate said:
For years we as Catholics were taught that Protestants will not get into heaven regardless of how good or bad they are. Why is this mans opinion any different just because he is coming at it from the opposite angle?
Maybe, because he said it within a few days of the young lad getting murdered.
 

smiffy

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Mothball said:
Maybe, because he said it within a few days of the young lad getting murdered.
Again, this goes to Seanód's point. Did Daily Ireland approach him and solicit his opinion, or did he just come out with it spontaneously? The distinction is an important one and, if the answer's the former, then it's reasonable to question the paper's motive for doing so. The 'highlighting sectarianism' argument doesn't really hold water given that it's not very difficult to find 'sectarianism' if you scratch the surface of 'religious belief'.
 

mothball

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smiffy said:
Mothball said:
Maybe, because he said it within a few days of the young lad getting murdered.
Again, this goes to Seanód's point. Did Daily Ireland approach him and solicit his opinion, or did he just come out with it spontaneously? The distinction is an important one and, if the answer's the former, then it's reasonable to question the paper's motive for doing so. The 'highlighting sectarianism' argument doesn't really hold water given that it's not very difficult to find 'sectarianism' if you scratch the surface of 'religious belief'.
What's wrong with 'No comment'? He should have kept his mouth shut.
 

smiffy

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Mothball said:
What's wrong with 'No comment'? He should have kept his mouth shut.
But surely the claims of sectarianism stem from the belief itself, rather than just the fact that he said it. If it's acceptable to hold those beliefs, and the criticism is just the expression of them, then isn't it just a case of insensitivity?
 

Sidewinder

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That's sophistry smiffy. The fact is that DUP politicians and numerous clergy makes these kind of comments all the time. This is not some kind of one-off isolated incident where Daily Ireland backed him into a corner. This is the kind of lunacy that underpins a large swathe of Unionist thinking, that makes the north what it is, and that creates and sustains the climate where sectarian murders can happen.

These people have got a free pass for far, far, far too long. The media - and all sane politicians - in this country should be jumping on comments like this and yelling blue murder about them day in, day out for as long as it takes till sectarianism is no longer considered acceptable within Unionism.

Pretending it doesn't exist and hoping it will go away, or making excuses for it, is highly irresponsible and will, inevitably, lead to more deaths. It really is that simple. If the rest of civic society was doing its job properly, the Daily Ireland wouldn't be the only ones reporting this, and the smug wouldn't be able to simply dismiss it with snide remarks that amount to "Well the Shinners said it so we can ignore it".
 

Trefor

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DSCH said:
eamonn_ie said:
How dare the Daily Ireland bring this to our attention! Somehow AndrewM you've spun this to blame SF, and that's remarkable.
Daily Ireland regularly has comments of obscure unionist backwoodsmen as its headlines. It is a sectarian sh!t stirring shinner organ, and in its own way is as intellectually dishonest as the sindo.
Obviously the Belfast Telrgraph wouldn't dream of reporting on sectarian comments made by nationalist politicians. :roll:
 

smiffy

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Sidewinder said:
That's sophistry smiffy. The fact is that DUP politicians and numerous clergy makes these kind of comments all the time. This is not some kind of one-off isolated incident where Daily Ireland backed him into a corner. This is the kind of lunacy that underpins a large swathe of Unionist thinking, that makes the north what it is, and that creates and sustains the climate where sectarian murders can happen.

These people have got a free pass for far, far, far too long. The media - and all sane politicians - in this country should be jumping on comments like this and yelling blue murder about them day in, day out for as long as it takes till sectarianism is no longer considered acceptable within Unionism.
You see, you say it's 'sectarianism', but I'm a little unclear about the difference between sectarianism and religious faith in this instance. Is there a difference?
 

Sidewinder

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In this instance, probably not :lol:

I'd define sectarianism as beliefs, actions and speeches which spread hate, fear and anger towards another group in society for no reason other than religious differences; OR which dehumanize such a group and say that they are inferior, not as worthy as "us". Or both.

The proper response also depends on the societal context. In a normal society, some lone nutjob religious loon saying something daft can be treated with amusement or indifference. In a sick society with a massive problem in existing sectarian violence and murder, for anyone, let alone elected politicians, to fuel that fire deserves instant and overwhelming condemnation from all of civic society. It's the only way to root it out.
 

smiffy

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Sidewinder said:
I'd define sectarianism as beliefs, actions and speeches which spread hate, fear and anger towards another group in society for no reason other than religious differences; OR which dehumanize such a group and say that they are inferior, not as worthy as "us". Or both.
Do you think that the belief that a certain person, or group of people, won't go to heaven meets this standard?
 

Rochey

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smiffy said:
Sidewinder said:
That's sophistry smiffy. The fact is that DUP politicians and numerous clergy makes these kind of comments all the time. This is not some kind of one-off isolated incident where Daily Ireland backed him into a corner. This is the kind of lunacy that underpins a large swathe of Unionist thinking, that makes the north what it is, and that creates and sustains the climate where sectarian murders can happen.

These people have got a free pass for far, far, far too long. The media - and all sane politicians - in this country should be jumping on comments like this and yelling blue murder about them day in, day out for as long as it takes till sectarianism is no longer considered acceptable within Unionism.
You see, you say it's 'sectarianism', but I'm a little unclear about the difference between sectarianism and religious faith in this instance. Is there a difference?
I have to agree with you here Smiffy after careful consideration. Were the comments actually sectarian? He did condemn the murder and when questioned about his religious beliefs he gave an honest answer. Yes he could have sugar coated it but just because he didn't doesn't make it sectrarian. Staunch Catholics would say that gays and Protestants and many many others won't get to heaven. I have heard worse from Paisley and McCrea. I can remember some TV interview where McCrea was actually slagging off Catholics and Catholicism is a very cynical and hateful manner and that is Sectarianism rather than what this councillor did, which was simply to explain his religious beliefs. Most religions believe that theres is the one true path to salvation, that's why I don't agree with any of them!!
 

Sidewinder

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smiffy said:
Do you think that the belief that a certain person, or group of people, won't go to heaven meets this standard?
Nice of you to side-step the societal context qualifier.

When there is a serious problem with sectarian attitudes causing the deaths of teenagers, then yes it is at the very least highly irresponsible to say things which feed the perception that Catholics are "less worthy".

If he was a fundy preacher in, say, Galway, everyone could just laugh at the fool. But if in Galway there were gangs running around that thought it was just fine to exterminate the Protestant/Nigerian/Polish/whatever vermin and some priest said "Sure they don't go to heaven anyway" then he would be rounded on from a great height, and rightfully so.
 

smiffy

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Sidewinder said:
Nice of you to side-step the societal context qualifier.
I didn't think it was relevant to the question I put. I'll deal with it if you like, though.

If he was a fundy preacher in, say, Galway, everyone could just laugh at the fool. But if in Galway there were gangs running around that thought it was just fine to exterminate the Protestant/Nigerian/Polish/whatever vermin and some priest said "Sure they don't go to heaven anyway" then he would be rounded on from a great height, and rightfully so.
But that's not what we're talking about in this case. A better example would be if you had gangs attacking Nigerians running around and a newspaper approached someone with well-known religious beliefs stating that Nigerians don't go to heaven and asked him if Nigerians go to heaven or not.

The way you phrased the initial definition of sectarian included beliefs and speeches with spread hate, fear and anger towards another group for no reason other than religious differences (it's a little narrow, but we'll go with it). You didn't qualify this definition with an appeal to social context; rather you seemed to suggest that our response should be determined by it (i.e. the lone nutjob might still be sectarian, but he doesn't really matter).

The question was whether you considered the belief (or the expression of the belief) that certain people don't go to heaven to meet the criteria (hate, fear, anger etc.) you propose. Do you?
 

qwertyu

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Last year Councillor Gillespie said that the Harry Potter books by JK Rowling "amount to a "cult", and contain material totally unsuitable for young minds.These cults with their stories about witches are damaging, especially to young people who would be better off saying their prayers."

I'm sure Gillespie knows only too well about cults and 'material that is totally unsuitable for young minds'.
 

Sidewinder

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Meets the criteria of dehumanizing and portraying Themmuns as less worthy, yes.

You can wibble away about the societal context not being relevant if you like. Yer just trying to shoehorn the argument onto artificially narrow grounds chosen by you so that you can nit-pick us all to death and proclaim "victory" :lol:

For a lone preacher to say such things in a normal society would be just religious people saying stupid stuff as usual. For an elected politician to say such things in a town with a serious and deadly sectarianism problem - well that's sectarian, and feeding sectarianism.

Feel free to jump on some minor point and start quibbling away. It's what you usually do.
 

AndrewM

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duff said:
AndrewM said:
Interesting how 'Daily Ireland' dug up this story. At a time when others are trying to ease tensions, they go out and write this. Not out of any sense of justice, just to sell a few more papers.
Ah so we'll just ignore more anti catholic bigotry to appease the Bigots. Great logic you have there boy :roll:
Daily Ireland knew this man was a bigot, they knew what his response would be but they contacted him anyway to get a story.

To an extent, yes, ignore bigotry. At a time of tension in the community, is there any need to throw fuel in the fire?
 


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