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Austerity failing to achieve results, Ictu says


SPN

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Feb 2, 2004
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You have to laugh when you see grown men putting their name to this sort of idiotic codswallop.

Austerity failing to achieve results, Ictu says - The Irish Times - Tue, Oct 30, 2012

THE AUSTERITY measures being imposed on the country are causing unnecessary suffering and have no purpose because the programme itself is failing, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (Ictu) has told the European Commission.
We haven't had any "Austerity Measures"!

In 2009 the Government was overspending by €400 million a week, and today it is overspending by €350 million a week.

That is not Austerity!

The reason the "programme itself is failing" is because there is no programme.



(David Begg said) Ictu believed jobs were “the central economic objective and that this should be the guiding light on the road back to fiscal prudence rather than the deficit reduction being the main objective”.
Jobs aren't the problem - there is loads of work out there as needs doing.

Paying the wages of the people who do the jobs is the problem - because "there is no shagging money".

Public unions too stupid or too demented to admit we're broke - Kevin Myers, Columnists - Independent.ie



(Mr Székely) also asked why previously high levels of infrastructure investment had not led to improved facilities and outcome for Ireland.
Because we pissed away that investment on 50,000 a day capacity Motorways on routes that are lucky to see 3,000 vehicles on the average day.

And let's not mention the Glass Bottle Site in Ringsend.



(ICTU) would like to see the state taking a more active role both directly and in leading private investment.
And where, pray tell, does ICTU think the Government will be able to find the money to "take a more active role" when it is already close to the end of the €65 Billion it managed to scam from the lenders of last resort, and which it has pissed away on pay perks and pensions for the insiders?




"(ICTU) do not advocate any large scale projects, but rather set out areas for investment,” he said.
“These include broadband, public transport, water and waste, and health and education.”
What about energy?

Energy is the area that will really bite us on the ass in the next couple of years if we don't get on with rolling out a robust and sustainable energy infrastructure. Dublin's biggest water treatment plant has over 2MW of backup capacity. Dublin's primary sewage treatment plant has over 4MW of backup capacity. All the areas that ICTU highlight for investment require massive amounts of energy to function, yet ICTU blindly ignores the elephant in the room (yet again).




(David Begg) said investment in the health sector over recent years, while high, had been insufficient to overcome the damage inflicted by previous austerity in the late 1980s and early 1990s.
The austerity of the late 1980s and early 1990s was the direct result of the refusal to deal with our economic problems head-on in the late 1970s and early 1980s. By the time they were dealt with (because it was no longer possible to avoid dealing with them) they were so much more costly (in cash terms, and in social terms) and so much more difficult to deal with.

Today it looks like we are going to make the same mistakes all over again, and another generation will face the misery that my generation felt in the 1980s.




Mr Begg said the risk arising from stimulus was not “leakage to exports from second-round effects” but rather that the money might be saved.
What an idiotic thing to say.

"Growth" comes from the incremental increase in bank lending. Bank lending comes from bank deposits/savings.

Without people saving it will not be possible for the banks to start lending again (notwithstanding the deleveraging process they have to undergo first), but Mr Begg can't join the dots.



So my question to Mr Begg, or any of the apologists for Money Fairy Economics, is "Where will the money come from"?
 


bob3367

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How much is Begg earning this year?

€200k?
 

statsman

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Jobs aren't the problem - there is loads of work out there as needs doing.

Paying the wages of the people who do the jobs is the problem - because "there is no shagging money".
Work without pay is not a job; jobs most definitely are the problem.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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Jan 17, 2011
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50,439
You have to laugh when you see grown men putting their name to this sort of idiotic codswallop.




We haven't had any "Austerity Measures"!

In 2009 the Government was overspending by €400 million a week, and today it is overspending by €350 million a week.

That is not Austerity!

The reason the "programme itself is failing" is because there is no programme.
SPN, you might not think the austerity has gone far enough, but there have been lots of austerity measures.

Austerity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In economics, austerity refers to a policy of deficit-cutting by lowering spending via a reduction in the amount of benefits and public services provided. Austerity policies are often used by governments to try to reduce their deficit spending and are sometimes coupled with increases in taxes to demonstrate long-term fiscal solvency to creditors.
 

wishywashy

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Sep 19, 2010
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2,616
You have to laugh when you see grown men putting their name to this sort of idiotic codswallop.

Austerity failing to achieve results, Ictu says - The Irish Times - Tue, Oct 30, 2012



We haven't had any "Austerity Measures"!

In 2009 the Government was overspending by €400 million a week, and today it is overspending by €350 million a week.

That is not Austerity!

The reason the "programme itself is failing" is because there is no programme.





Jobs aren't the problem - there is loads of work out there as needs doing.

Paying the wages of the people who do the jobs is the problem - because "there is no shagging money".

Public unions too stupid or too demented to admit we're broke - Kevin Myers, Columnists - Independent.ie





Because we pissed away that investment on 50,000 a day capacity Motorways on routes that are lucky to see 3,000 vehicles on the average day.

And let's not mention the Glass Bottle Site in Ringsend.





And where, pray tell, does ICTU think the Government will be able to find the money to "take a more active role" when it is already close to the end of the €65 Billion it managed to scam from the lenders of last resort, and which it has pissed away on pay perks and pensions for the insiders?






What about energy?

Energy is the area that will really bite us on the ass in the next couple of years if we don't get on with rolling out a robust and sustainable energy infrastructure. Dublin's biggest water treatment plant has over 2MW of backup capacity. Dublin's primary sewage treatment plant has over 4MW of backup capacity. All the areas that ICTU highlight for investment require massive amounts of energy to function, yet ICTU blindly ignores the elephant in the room (yet again).






The austerity of the late 1980s and early 1990s was the direct result of the refusal to deal with our economic problems head-on in the late 1970s and early 1980s. By the time they were dealt with (because it was no longer possible to avoid dealing with them) they were so much more costly (in cash terms, and in social terms) and so much more difficult to deal with.

Today it looks like we are going to make the same mistakes all over again, and another generation will face the misery that my generation felt in the 1980s.






What an idiotic thing to say.

"Growth" comes from the incremental increase in bank lending. Bank lending comes from bank deposits/savings.

Without people saving it will not be possible for the banks to start lending again (notwithstanding the deleveraging process they have to undergo first), but Mr Begg can't join the dots.



So my question to Mr Begg, or any of the apologists for Money Fairy Economics, is "Where will the money come from"?
 

SPN

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Messages
16,891

wishywashy

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You have to laugh when you see grown men putting their name to this sort of idiotic codswallop.

Austerity failing to achieve results, Ictu says - The Irish Times - Tue, Oct 30, 2012



We haven't had any "Austerity Measures"!

In 2009 the Government was overspending by €400 million a week, and today it is overspending by €350 million a week.

That is not Austerity!

The reason the "programme itself is failing" is because there is no programme.









Jobs aren't the problem - there is loads of work out there as needs doing.

Paying the wages of the people who do the jobs is the problem - because "there is no shagging money".

Public unions too stupid or too demented to admit we're broke - Kevin Myers, Columnists - Independent.ie





Because we pissed away that investment on 50,000 a day capacity Motorways on routes that are lucky to see 3,000 vehicles on the average day.

And let's not mention the Glass Bottle Site in Ringsend.





And where, pray tell, does ICTU think the Government will be able to find the money to "take a more active role" when it is already close to the end of the €65 Billion it managed to scam from the lenders of last resort, and which it has pissed away on pay perks and pensions for the insiders?






What about energy?

Energy is the area that will really bite us on the ass in the next couple of years if we don't get on with rolling out a robust and sustainable energy infrastructure. Dublin's biggest water treatment plant has over 2MW of backup capacity. Dublin's primary sewage treatment plant has over 4MW of backup capacity. All the areas that ICTU highlight for investment require massive amounts of energy to function, yet ICTU blindly ignores the elephant in the room (yet again).






The austerity of the late 1980s and early 1990s was the direct result of the refusal to deal with our economic problems head-on in the late 1970s and early 1980s. By the time they were dealt with (because it was no longer possible to avoid dealing with them) they were so much more costly (in cash terms, and in social terms) and so much more difficult to deal with.

Today it looks like we are going to make the same mistakes all over again, and another generation will face the misery that my generation felt in the 1980s.






What an idiotic thing to say.

"Growth" comes from the incremental increase in bank lending. Bank lending comes from bank deposits/savings.

Without people saving it will not be possible for the banks to start lending again (notwithstanding the deleveraging process they have to undergo first), but Mr Begg can't join the dots.



So my question to Mr Begg, or any of the apologists for Money Fairy Economics, is "Where will the money come from"?


"We havent had any austerity measures". Who are you,Rip Van Winkle?
 

SPN

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SPN, you might not think the austerity has gone far enough, but there have been lots of austerity measures.
In 2009 the Government overspent by €400 million a week.

In 2012 they are overspending by €350 million a week.

In the meantime they have racked up debts of €100 Billion to fund all this overspending.



In 2015 we will have to balance the books, and service the €100 Billion.


The alternative was to balance the books in 2009 and not rack up the debt.
 

statsman

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Incorrect.

Lack of money is the problem.
Lack of money leads to lack of jobs; they're both problems. I was just pointing out that you are confusing work that could be done with jobs, which are paid work.
 

SPN

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Lack of money leads to lack of jobs; they're both problems. I was just pointing out that you are confusing work that could be done with jobs, which are paid work.
I'm not confusing anything.

There is plenty of work as needs to be done.

The problem is that there is no money to pay people to do the work.


You are the one who is missing this very simple point.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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In 2009 the Government overspent by €400 million a week.

In 2012 they are overspending by €350 million a week.

In the meantime they have racked up debts of €100 Billion to fund all this overspending.



In 2015 we will have to balance the books, and service the €100 Billion.


The alternative was to balance the books in 2009 and not rack up the debt.
Taxes have been raised, spending has been cut and public services have been reduced. That is austerity.

Balance the books in 2009? That would have destroyed this country.
 

statsman

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I'm not confusing anything.

There is plenty of work as needs to be done.

The problem is that there is no money to pay people to do the work.


You are the one who is missing this very simple point.
Whatever.
 

Trainwreck

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Funnily I would agree.

Austerity, as a policy was never going to make sense.

What is needed though is a massive reduction in the footprint of government, combined with a massive relaxation of the financial burden of public sector on households.

I don't think that is what the ICTU had in mind as an alternative though.
 

SPN

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Whatever.
There is no "whatever" about it.

This is a fundamental point.


Meanwhile, please tell us where you think we should get the money to pay people if we want to create jobs?
 
Last edited:

SPN

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Taxes have been raised, spending has been cut and public services have been reduced. That is austerity.
Spending has not been cut!




Balance the books in 2009? That would have destroyed this country.
And racking up €100 Billion in debt hasn't?
 

wishywashy

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Ok , so we have had austerity , we are still overspending by 350 million a week , whats your solution ?

I dont have one. The politicians are paid their over inflated salaries to find a solution and they cant do it. By the way,whats yours?
 

statsman

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There is no "whatever" about it.

This is a fundamental point.
It's not that fundamental, really. Individual saving levels are still very high, but consumer spending is down. If people were willing to spend, there would be more jobs in the domestic economy. Part of the reason they, we, won't spend is job insecurity. And round and round we go.
 

SPN

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It's not that fundamental, really. Individual saving levels are still very high, but consumer spending is down. If people were willing to spend, there would be more jobs in the domestic economy. Part of the reason they, we, won't spend is job insecurity. And round and round we go.
Saving levels are irrelevent (other than the fact that savings can be loaned out by banks ).


The big issue is the missing €1.1 Billion a week of bank lending that went straight into the economy in wages (directly or indirectly) and taxes (+/-€400 million a week).

That €1.1 Billion cannot be replaced (other than by ramping up our exports by 40%).

The €400 million of taxes cannot be replaced by taking more from the real economy.


If we confiscated peoples savings at a rate of €1.1 Billion a week we'd have run out of cash (and bankrupted our banks) within months.


That is not the solution.
 

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