Ballyseedy

[cb1979]

Here is a link to the RTÉ Documentary on Ballyseedy from 1997.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx8WshBEoug"]YouTube- Ballyseedy massacre 1923 (1/10)[/nomedia]

It's split into ten parts. One of the most interesting historical documentaries RTÉ have done in recent years and ideally RTÉ should repeat it soon. Unfortunately it's not available on the RTÉ Iplayer so fair play to the person who uploaded it.

 

[Mitsui2]

An excellent documentary, and, as you say, one of the most interesting RTE has done in years...only trouble is, it's not so recent anymore. RTE really did some seriously good docs in the '90s... I never could figure out what happened since.

 

[cb1979]

Historical documentaries are one area that's sadly neglected by RTÉ, although TG4 have made some very interesting ones in recent years. I really wish RTÉ would make better use of their archives through the RTÉ website. They have a small archive section on it but they could put up so much more. Unfortunately, as well, RTÉ destroyed a lot of their archive in the past.

If I had one minor quibble with the documentary it's that there is no mention of the Kenmare case, which was a bizarre end to the whole unfortunate saga, but that's a very small complaint in what is otherwise one of the best programmes RTÉ have made in the last 15 years.

 

[Didimus]

These might work better:
http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0003/D.0003.192304170017.html
Dil ireann - Volume 3 - 17 April, 1923 - THE ADJOURNMENT—KERRY PRISONERS' DEATHS.

 

[wretchedwilbur]

Got to agree that this was one of the finest historical documentaries produced by RTE.

What sticks out most in my memory was how the locals in Kerry viewed the Free State forces as the "Dublin" police. And how they saw Dub oppression as a seamless extension of Brit oppression. For me , this was an unexpected perspective.

Also the link between the Ballyseedy survivor and Joanna Hayes and the Kerry Babies scandal - when again the Dublin "heavy gang" police terrorised the local peasantry. One event has macabre redolences of the other.

Thanks for the link ,CB.

 

[cb1979]

I hadn't heard that Wilbur. What was the link between Joanna Hayes and Stephen Fuller?

 

[Didimus]

I hadn't heard that Wilbur. What was the link between Joanna Hayes and Stephen Fuller?

Think she was a direct relative.

 

[cb1979]

Thanks Didimus.

 

[wretchedwilbur]

I hadn't heard that Wilbur. What was the link between Joanna Hayes and Stephen Fuller?

Sorry cb - just saw it now.

He was Joanne's grandfather , I think. You might recall that one of the Hayes family interrogated by police was an elderly aunt of Joanne's- Bridie Fuller.

 

[cb1979]

The Examiner - Opinion - 23, February, 2000

An article from T. Ryle Dwyer in the Cork Examiner about Ballyseedy.

 

[wretchedwilbur]

The Examiner - Opinion - 23, February, 2000

An article from T. Ryle Dwyer in the Cork Examiner about Ballyseedy.

Jesus !

According to Ryle Dwyer , Ned Breslin married the sister of one of the men he executed !!

So much for "blood is thicker than water".

Romeo and Juliet - the Kerry way.

 

[cb1979]

I always thought that was bizarre myself.

 

[JohnD66]

New article up on The Irish Story about the Civil War in Dublin, 1922-1923. "Who shot Frank Lawlor?"

http://www.theirishstory.com/2010/05...ish-civil-war/

On the war in Dublin and alos the memory of it in Ireland generally.

And tomorrow, two audio interviews, one from either side of the civil war divide.

 

[The_Big_Fellow]

Got to agree that this was one of the finest historical documentaries produced by RTE.

What sticks out most in my memory was how the locals in Kerry viewed the Free State forces as the "Dublin" police. And how they saw Dub oppression as a seamless extension of Brit oppression. For me , this was an unexpected perspective.

Also the link between the Ballyseedy survivor and Joanna Hayes and the Kerry Babies scandal - when again the Dublin "heavy gang" police terrorised the local peasantry. One event has macabre redolences of the other.

Thanks for the link ,CB.

That was a very interesting point, it could ironic that the actions of Ballyseedy were headed by a Cosgrave, while the Heavy gang were a creation of a Cosgrave Govt. "Upholding" the law by dragging it's corpse through the mud.

What is that saying that history is first repeated as tragedy than as farce.

 

[JohnD66]

That was a very interesting point, it could ironic that the actions of Ballyseedy were headed by a Cosgrave, while the Heavy gang were a creation of a Cosgrave Govt. "Upholding" the law by dragging it's corpse through the mud.

What is that saying that history is first repeated as tragedy than as farce.

I thnk that's one of the keys to understanding the legacy of the civil war actually - this attitude of 'authoritarian legalism' on the part of the state, where it was prepared to do all kinds of semi-illegal and occasionally brutal stuff to uphold law and impose 'order' when the state was threatened.

I'm not saying we had a fascist dictatorship or anything, but there's definitely this streak of authoritarianism that dates from that time - the official secrets Act, the Offences against the state legislation, the secrecy of cabinet minutes (up until the Freedom of Information Act).

And this wasn't confined to CnG or FG either, FF were no different when in power.

 

[The_Big_Fellow]

I thnk that's one of the keys to understanding the legacy of the civil war actually - this attitude of 'authoritarian legalism' on the part of the state, where it was prepared to do all kinds of semi-illegal and occasionally brutal stuff to uphold law and impose 'order' when the state was threatened.

I'm not saying we had a fascist dictatorship or anything, but there's definitely this streak of authoritarianism that dates from that time - the official secrets Act, the Offences against the state legislation, the secrecy of cabinet minutes (up until the Freedom of Information Act).

And this wasn't confined to CnG or FG either, FF were no different when in power.

No agreed, but the foundation built in the first few years was rotten, it built upon divisions in Irish society by putting barriers to the Irregulars rei-integrating in to society, getting jobs and so forth, it did many things that were illegal, the state and its legitimacy became all that mattered, no matter the cost, the law was viewed as something that could be bent from day one, long as you were in power. FF no doubt built on this, but both main parties are to blame.

 

[Cruimh]

Worth a read if you can get a copy - Tomorrow Was Another Day by Seamus O'Connor

 

[JohnD66]

Worth a read if you can get a copy - Tomorrow Was Another Day by Seamus O'Connor

What's it about?

 

[Tomas Mor]

Big Fellow

The murder squad as it was called was in existence long before Cosgrave came to power, so it was FF creation. And interesting thing is that most of the members of police sent to Kerry were all Kerrymen like, Courney, Gerry Carroll ( who describes himself as an author now) Courtney still alive and gave evidence ionto an appeal before Court of criminal appeal a few days ago. He said heavy gang was a creation of Irish Times,and that it never existed.

 

[The_Big_Fellow]

What's it about?

If memory serves me correct, o'Connor was a volunteer during the Tan war and also a School teacher, and it's basically he recollection of tying the two together.

I remember a funny part about him trying to keep control of the class, but he had been out on active service all night and kept falling asleep at his desk.

Well recommended